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  1. #81
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, for starters, you could give one specific about what impact it would have on people.
    I did. It was the first statement you quoted.

    I don't think marriage is quite what you crack it up to be, nor do I think you aware of how eclectic a word it actually is and many forms it has taken. You underestimate the fluidity of culture.
    You underestimate the danger of uprooting traditions hat have held societies together for millennia. That is, who is having sex with who is a matter of public concern.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #82
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's a silly argument as there are many many public policies that seemingly have no individual impact on my life yet that has nothing to do with whether those policies should be enacted or not.
    Okay. Give an example of how it negatively effects people other than yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Everything changes. We're living in democracies, and as Spinoza pointed, the real aim of democracy is individual freedom. Can you prove that existence of gay marriage doesn't improve the individual freedom, the right of people to choose the way they want to live?
    Are you against democracy, because the enlightenment age eventually affected the freedom people have, and as such caused fundamental shifts in society?
    That is your right after all.
    Not to mention that democracy itself was a violation of the thousands of years of civic tradition at the time of its general onset. Perhaps Beorn will tell us what harmful effects that had.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #83
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I did. It was the first statement you quoted.
    All I saw was some vague claim about it undermining marriage for different sex couples, which I do not take to be an example of a harmful effect on people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You underestimate the danger of uprooting traditions hat have held societies together for millinia. That is, who is having sex with who is a matter of public concern.
    Do you know how many places still had polygamy less than 1000 years ago? And have you thought about how marriage has changed and differed between time and place? There are rules about divorce, age of marriage, even mixed race couples. It's not a uniform thing. You're being arbitrary in deciding which part is important and which isn't.

    I suppose you'd think it a radical notion if I told you that I don't think marriage has done a whole lot to hold society together. Where it was most relevant was amongst nobility, and in that case it was relevant only because of the now thoroughly rejected concept of hereditary rule.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #84
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Believe it or not MP I dont accept homosexuality as natural
    Are you using "'natural" to mean "against what I perceive to be an objective source of morality"?

    If so, I don't have an argument against you without getting into a religion debate I'm not interested in having, although I'm sure others will take you up on the offer. I'm still grappling with the issue of universal vs. relative morality, so I do not feel equipped to argue on those grounds.

    However, if you mean "natural" in some other sense, please explain what you mean.

    Natural appears to be referring to human nature. Human nature includes all things humans are capable of. Things that are outside of human nature are things that humans are incapable of. Humans appear to be capable of homosexuality. I have a hard time understanding, then, how homosexuality can be against human nature or "unnatural."
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    millinia
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    millinia
    Millennia.

  6. #86
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Everything changes. We're living in democracies, and as Spinoza pointed, the real aim of democracy is individual freedom. Can you prove that existence of gay marriage doesn't improve the individual freedom, the right of people to choose the way they want to live?
    Are you against democracy, because the enlightenment age eventually affected the freedom people have, and as such caused fundamental shifts in society?
    That is your right after all.
    At least you're starting to get at the fundemental differences. I'm suspicious and guarded about democracy. There is a ballance of freedom that must be struck and it's a fool's errand to try to move society toward absolute freedom. Anyone that's not an anarchist or still entranced by the enlightenment dream would agree with me on those points so it's just a matter of where we should draw the lines. Of course we are not making up society from scratch, but stand on the shoulders of giants (and failures) before us so it only seems reasonable to take precautions.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #87
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Millennia.
    Thank you.

    Edit: this is why I didn't point out MP's use of effect. Glass houses and all that.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #88
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    You're welcome.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Edit: this is why I didn't point out MP's use of effect. Glass houses and all that.
    Tsk tsk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    ballance
    Balance.

  9. #89
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    it's a fool's errand to try to move society toward absolute freedom.
    There is no such a thing as "absolute freedom". It doesn't exist, and never will.
    Freedom is only contextual. The gay marriage is only an adaptation to our current society and context, one between many. And to promote individual freedom, we constantly have to adapt, and think according to our times. Democracy is in constant motion, it's never static and that's why you have all this debates and regular elections. Unlike totalitarian ideologies, democratic solutions are never written in advance.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #90
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Thank you.

    Edit: this is why I didn't point out MP's use of effect. Glass houses and all that.
    "I will not exploit my opponent's youth and lack of experience".

    I swear every time I've read the difference between effect and affect I've found a different answer. I've just given up on that one.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

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