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  1. #61
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Alright, did you see the bit in the OP that the thread wasnt about homosexuality per se, though we'd not agree about harm or oppression on that point its not really the point of the thread.

    Although it may illustrate something about tendency to affirm homosexuality any chance there is which I still think is a mistake and no one's ever attempted ever to persuade me of, instead acting like its self evident.
    By and large, most of what I said can be transplanted onto the other issues this thread's topic tends to concern. No, I don't accept everything, but I don't think the thread is about the amount of things we accept or don't. It's about the behavior of those who accept something towards those who do not accept that thing, and with that I stand by everything I said.

    At any rate, I'd say that the burden of proof is on you to show that homosexuality is harmful in anyway. I can certainly show how oppressing homosexuality is harmful. The history of people being assaulted, tortured, and executed for homosexuality is know and I assume I don't have to go demonstrating its occurrence to you. I think we'd generally agree that those things happening to people is bad. Also, there are cases like that of Alan Turing and the countless others who have been subjected to vast psychological harm merely for being gay.

    And in case such specifics about homosexuality seem like a derail from the OP, I think these examples illustrate how absurd it is to include non-acceptance under the umbrella of acceptance. How can I be accepting of certain people and also be accepting of those would treat those people the way Dr. Turing was treated? Now that would be hypocrisy, or actually outright self-contradiction.
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  2. #62
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It's of course possible, but much less likely because it's not as motivated.
    Motivated by what? It seems to me to for a crime to be motivated, there has to be hate. I had a liberal friend once tell me that "we should throw rocks at them"(the people who dont support gay marriage). I mean, she was joking, so its not really a good example but still, theres some pretty hardcore liberals out there and some people need to be kept in check - just so they dont go too far regardless of their stance.

    As far as Magic Poriferan's arguement is concerned though - I pretty much agree the logic used in the OP is off, still its interesting to talk about stuff like this because intolerance can come from anyone regardless of their stance, and thats what I use this thread for.

  3. #63
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Motivated by what? It seems to me to for a crime to be motivated, there has to be hate. I had a liberal friend once tell me that "we should throw rocks at them"(the people who dont support gay marriage). I mean, she was joking, so its not really a good example but still, theres some pretty hardcore liberals out there and some people need to be kept in check - just so they dont go too far regardless of their stance.

    As far as Magic Poriferan's arguement is concerned though - I pretty much agree the logic used in the OP is off, still its interesting to talk about stuff like this because intolerance can come from anyone regardless of their stance, and thats what I use this thread for.
    Yes...motivated by hate. That was my point.
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  4. #64
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    This is not the topic of the thread, but merely a common example I will use to explain the topic: homosexuality.

    Why are we as a culture so accepting of one person's choice to be homosexual and not another person's choice to merely have values against homosexuality when one is far more unnatural and taboo? This makes no sense. What's more, society has taken an anti-anti-homosexuality stance, which is acceptable to society, of course, so apparently it's okay to be against someone else's stance.
    Pure sophistry.

    Hate or personal phobias aren't a subject that can be either "accepted" or "non accepted". Wrong category.

    It's like complaining why the Jews hate the Nazis...
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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And in case such specifics about homosexuality seem like a derail from the OP, I think these examples illustrate how absurd it is to include non-acceptance under the umbrella of acceptance. How can I be accepting of certain people and also be accepting of those would treat those people the way Dr. Turing was treated? Now that would be hypocrisy, or actually outright self-contradiction.
    Believe it or not MP I dont accept homosexuality as natural for the vast majority of human kind and have never verbally abused or physically assaulted anyone because of their views about it. Shocking and all I know but there you go.

    Guess that straight up fucks up your argument then, huh?

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Motivated by what? It seems to me to for a crime to be motivated, there has to be hate. I had a liberal friend once tell me that "we should throw rocks at them"(the people who dont support gay marriage). I mean, she was joking, so its not really a good example but still, theres some pretty hardcore liberals out there and some people need to be kept in check - just so they dont go too far regardless of their stance.

    As far as Magic Poriferan's arguement is concerned though - I pretty much agree the logic used in the OP is off, still its interesting to talk about stuff like this because intolerance can come from anyone regardless of their stance, and thats what I use this thread for.
    The reality is that failing to approve of homosexuality has already gotten people excluded from employment or business ownership in the UK.

    Although, you know, not an official, liberal approved underdog group so its alright to hate on them.

  7. #67
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm going to agree with this.

    I don't know how many times I have to explain this shit, but there's no sense in comparing "acceptance of X" to "acceptance of Y" when Y is a viewpoint aimed at hurting X. That automatically makes Y worse and less acceptable than X, even if you don't like X very much. And that's especially true if the people uttering Y belong to a majority group that holds institutional power over those who espouse Y.
    Well said.

    This is a question of boundaries: individual boundaries vs. social boundaries. To use the example in the OP: the pro-homosexual position is stating that individuals have a right to their personal boundaries. The anti-homosexual position states that social comfort of one individual trumps the other individual's right to make choices about their personal life.

    The pro and anti positions would be equivalent if each side wanted their idea of marriage to be the only legally binding one.

    Let's replace the OP example with something that we all assume is an individual right -if others can think of better plug-ins please include them. What if each of the following had been illegal, is now only legal in a few states, and many people are upset that anyone could consider legalizing the following for individual choice:

    Why are we as a culture so accepting of one person's choice to be Christian and not another person's choice to merely have values against Christianity when one is far more unnatural and taboo? This makes no sense. What's more, society has taken an anti-anti-Christian stance, which is acceptable to society, of course, so apparently it's okay to be against someone else's stance.
    Why are we as a culture so accepting of one person's choice to be Capitalist and not another person's choice to merely have values against Capitalism when one is far more unnatural and taboo? This makes no sense. What's more, society has taken an anti-anti-Capitalism stance, which is acceptable to society, of course, so apparently it's okay to be against someone else's stance.
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  8. #68
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm going to agree with this.

    I don't know how many times I have to explain this shit, but there's no sense in comparing "acceptance of X" to "acceptance of Y" when Y is a viewpoint aimed at hurting X. That automatically makes Y worse and less acceptable than X, even if you don't like X very much. And that's especially true if the people uttering Y belong to a majority group that holds institutional power over those who espouse Y.
    Thanks for the formula as it makes it easier to show how wrong you are.

    I don't know how many times I have to explain this shit, but there's no sense in comparing "acceptance of muderers" to "acceptance of imprisoning murderers" when imprisoning murderers is a viewpoint aimed at hurting murderers. That automatically makes imprisoning murderers worse and less acceptable than murdering even if you don't like murderers very much. And that's especially true if the people uttering acceptance of imprisoning murderers belong to a majority group that holds institutional power over those who espouse murder.

    You're closing off examination of ideas because you presume something that is repressive is not justified when clearly there are plenty of instances when we justify public repression of minority groups. But, you want to label certain ideas as phobia and hate so you can put them outside the category of rational ideas that can be justified.
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  9. #69
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Believe it or not MP I dont accept homosexuality as natural for the vast majority of human kind and have never verbally abused or physically assaulted anyone because of their views about it. Shocking and all I know but there you go.

    Guess that straight up fucks up your argument then, huh?
    Again: pure sophistry.

    What you're saying is like justifying Nazism just because a few Antisemites didn't physically assault Jews (yet). It's like justifying the existence of the KKK just because all racists don't lynch Africans every day.

    Accepting homosexuality is not a choice. The truth is that homosexuality is none of your concern. They do no harm against you, their way of life don't threaten or will change yours, so why do think you have the right to insult them, mess with their lives and decide what is better for them? All they do is shared between consenting adults, and you're not one of these consenting adults. So if you're not an homosexual yourself, why bother, why do you seem so angry?

    The sophistry here is based on deliberately confusing active and passive arguments, when in fact they do not belong to the same logical category. Because once again, in logic non-A is never equivalent to A.
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  10. #70
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Believe it or not MP I dont accept homosexuality as natural for the vast majority of human kind and have never verbally abused or physically assaulted anyone because of their views about it. Shocking and all I know but there you go.

    Guess that straight up fucks up your argument then, huh?
    It doesn't mess up my argument in the slightest. It's twice irrelevant.

    First of all, I don't give a shit whether or not you consider homosexuality natural for the vast majority of mankind. I don't think it is, as it seems most people are inherently heterosexual. That is, if one even uses the word natural in that manner (and I suspect you are using it in a different and more dubious way). But that was not the crucial question, was it? I didn't ask you what was natural. I asked you what was harmful. Show me that homosexuality is harmful, or you have no leg to stand on.

    Secondly, it makes little difference that you haven't assaulted a homosexual personally. To me, your argument makes as much sense as doubting the existence of anti-semitism because you never attacked a Jew. My point was that oppression of homosexuality has historically happened and it has been harmful. If that continues to be true, then my point stands. The fact that you personally have not done something does not refute my point.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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