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  1. #51
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    This one is extremely easy to figure out.

    One is accepting someone's desire to be something, the other is accepting someone's desire to not accept someone being something. It takes very little thought to understand why a culture of acceptance would be okay with the first and not the second. Being okay with the second is inviting the culture of acceptance to be destroyed by unaccepting people.

    Really, the entire thread concept comes down to holding too closely to the exact definition of acceptance and applying it universally, which will inevitably create a paradox. The OP is basically built on a stupid word game.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This one is extremely easy to figure out.

    One is accepting someone's desire to be something, the other is accepting someone's desire to not accept someone being something. It takes very little thought to understand why a culture of acceptance would be okay with the first and not the second. Being okay with the second is inviting the culture of acceptance to be destroyed by unaccepting people.

    Really, the entire thread concept comes down to holding too closely to the exact definition of acceptance and applying it universally, which will inevitably create a paradox. The OP is basically built on a stupid word game.
    Perhaps it is but I think any opportunity to discuss disparity and diversity is a good one, there's been a lot of unconscious handling of this throughout history.

  3. #53
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Perhaps it is but I think any opportunity to discuss disparity and diversity is a good one, there's been a lot of unconscious handling of this throughout history.
    Discuss what part of it? Whether or not it's a good or bad thing in this case? If you favor diversity as a general thing, you're probably okay with homosexuality, so the discussion I can see here is about whether or not diversity is a good or bad thing.

    For my part, my acceptance of homosexuality is now because I believe that diversity is inherently a good thing, but because I see homosexuality as not doing any harm and oppressing homosexuality as doing harm.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #54
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Really, the entire thread concept comes down to holding too closely to the exact definition of acceptance and applying it universally, which will inevitably create a paradox. The OP is basically built on a stupid word game.
    It is built on something else as well: (perhaps willful) ignorance, which becomes apparent when we alter the wording a bit:

    Why are we as a culture so accepting of one person's choice to be black and not another person's choice to merely have values against black skin when one is far more unnatural and taboo? This makes no sense. What's more, society has taken an anti-anti-blackness stance, which is acceptable to society, of course, so apparently it's okay to be against someone else's stance.

  5. #55
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I think of it more as a stamp of approval by society, I guess. Don't get me wrong, I'm not...a big fan of it...but people are by nature xenophobic (it is a good survival instinct). When they are raised with the idea that something is not a threat, even if it aint their cup of tea, they are less likely to a) have a problem with in the first place and b) feel entitled to actually bully, pester or even get violent towards those targets, I think. It's basic socialization.

    So in a way, it is providing those targets with a much needed protection within the group.

    Otoh, it can swing too much the other way where it becomes condemned to actually think about and have your own opinion on that topic as you're instantly labelled as someone who isn't doing their part in society, which in and of itself is definitely oppressive as well.
    I agree with that.

    We're having a pendulum backswing right now because of how extreme our culture has been AGAINST it in the past, so.... live with it, and eventually things will steady out again, if you don't happen to like it.

    This even applies to the OP. Don't judge the culture by the backswing. Western culture was pretty rigid with female, racial, and other roles/minorities for so long that you can expect some backlash; right now, because of various factors (including the inability of a ruling group to maintain its hold on the culture due to commercialism and the Internet leading to influx of other cultures), we're seeing the backlash. Some of it even stems from just a general desire for fair play and equal opportunity, coupled with teenage idealism and standing up against establishment. So many things are playing into this.

    Just like an earthquake fault giving way after lots of built-up tension, we're seeing the equalizing force in action; and eventually things will stabilize, though.


    PS. Does this really have to become another thread arguing about homosexuality? (I mean, it's the OP's fault. But really, we could generalize further so it includes other topics.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    To use Nicodemus' example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus
    Why are we as a culture so accepting of one person's choice to be black and not another person's choice to merely have values against black skin when one is far more unnatural and taboo? This makes no sense. What's more, society has taken an anti-anti-blackness stance, which is acceptable to society, of course, so apparently it's okay to be against someone else's stance.
    In the U.S. at least, some black people did try to "be white", straightening their hair, using makeup, emulating white folks' dress, speech, tastes, etc. and disavowing much about their own African heritage. Not surprisingly, this led only to resentment, and to the unfortunate result that even today, blacks who are highly educated or financially successful are sometimes accused by other blacks of "trying to be white".

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    By their fruits shall ye know them.
    The Bahai's use this criterion to distinguish true prophets from false.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #57
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm going to agree with this.

    I don't know how many times I have to explain this shit, but there's no sense in comparing "acceptance of X" to "acceptance of Y" when Y is a viewpoint aimed at hurting X. That automatically makes Y worse and less acceptable than X, even if you don't like X very much. And that's especially true if the people uttering Y belong to a majority group that holds institutional power over those who espouse Y.

    Who says those with anti-anti homosexual stances cant be victims of violence?

  8. #58
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Who says those with anti-anti homosexual stances cant be victims of violence?
    It's of course possible, but much less likely because it's not as motivated.
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  9. #59

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    See to be honesty if we drop the liberal sacred cow of homosexuality here its easy to see how preposterous the ideas of acceptance, even outright approval, instead of mere impartiality are.

    Or it should be.

    Or maybe I will see all you athiests at mass on sunday

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Discuss what part of it? Whether or not it's a good or bad thing in this case? If you favor diversity as a general thing, you're probably okay with homosexuality, so the discussion I can see here is about whether or not diversity is a good or bad thing.

    For my part, my acceptance of homosexuality is now because I believe that diversity is inherently a good thing, but because I see homosexuality as not doing any harm and oppressing homosexuality as doing harm.
    Alright, did you see the bit in the OP that the thread wasnt about homosexuality per se, though we'd not agree about harm or oppression on that point its not really the point of the thread.

    Although it may illustrate something about tendency to affirm homosexuality any chance there is which I still think is a mistake and no one's ever attempted ever to persuade me of, instead acting like its self evident.

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