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  1. #31
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Because our culture's full of people who are holier-than-thou
    I really like cats and food.

  2. #32
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Otoh, it is a way to discourage harming those that are the target of said convictions.
    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Mostly because we like to congratulate ourselves. It's pretty shallow. As far as tolerance of homosexuals goes, that's fine, but I think a lot of people just use it to make themselves seem better than everyone else.
    Its a combination of these two things, though on the issue of growing public acceptance of homosexuality, and corresponding social ostracism toward people who disagree (and the OP's embellishments make me suspect that's his real topic of concern, despite protestations to the contrary), I suspect its predominantly the latter. To me, treating people with more traditional notions of morality as the equivalent of racial bigots is about as proportionate as treating people who oppose marijuana legalization or hand-gun ownership as totalitarian assholes.

  3. #33
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I couldnt argue that Thatcherism isnt represenative of the south of england, it clearly is.
    In many ways, in the English speaking world, this whole topic comes down to the south of England. Well, that's if you consider East Anglia, whence Puritanism arose, to be the south of England. The opinions may have changed, but the attitudes that those of "right belief" hold toward those who disagree, and the methods of enforcing it, particularly through shaming and ostracism, have nonetheless persisted.

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Our culture is based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment. And the Enlightenment values of evidence and reason, freedom and equality have given us the modern world.

    However the Romantic Movement is a reaction against the Enlightenment.

    And the Romantic Movement includes Communism, National Socialism and the New Age.

    And the guru of the New Age is Carl Jung and mbti is his child.

    So it would appear the New Age is accepting of everything except the Enlightenment.

  5. #35
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    ^ How is that relevant?

    Also, Communism is very much a child of the Enlightenment, not a reaction to it to like National Socialism.

    Marx called communism "scientific socialism."

    This is honestly the first time I've heard of Communism being lumped in with Romanticism.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  6. #36
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    ^ How is that relevant?

    Also, Communism is very much a child of the Enlightenment, not a reaction to it to like National Socialism.

    Marx called communism "scientific socialism."

    This is honestly the first time I've heard of Communism being lumped in with Romanticism.
    I took it for granted that Communism was opposed to liberal democracy. And liberal democracy is the child of the Enlightenment. So naturally I thought Communism was opposed to the Enlightenment. And Communism was opposed to the values of the Enlightenment, evidence and reason, freedom and equality.

    Communism abandoned scientific evidence with Lysenko. Communism abandoned free speech and so reason with Lenin. And Stalin put an end to freedom. Nonetheless Communism had a Romantic belief in equality, it's just that some are more equal than others.

  7. #37
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    You're right.

    That's why Communism, as an ideology, was big on inequality and religion.

    You know what, I give up. You just said equality was an enlightenment value. Then you said equality was a romantic value. I suppose it's possible for it to be both, but you are casting them as diametric opposites, judging by the rest of your post. It seems as though your argument is "I don't like the way Communism turned out, therefore it's not an enlightenment philosophy."

    Pretty sure most historians treat Communism as borrowing more from the enlightenment tradition than the romantic one.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  8. #38
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    You're right.

    That's why Communism, as an ideology, was big on inequality and religion.

    You know what, I give up. You just said equality was an enlightenment value. Then you said equality was a romantic value. I suppose it's possible for it to be both, but you are casting them as diametric opposites, judging by the rest of your post. It seems as though your argument is "I don't like the way Communism turned out, therefore it's not an enlightenment philosophy."

    Pretty sure most historians treat Communism as borrowing more from the enlightenment tradition than the romantic one.
    Of course Communism claimed to be Scientific Socialism, or Socialism plus Electricity is Communism. But read, "The Black Book of Communism", by a group a left wing French historians to find out what happened.

  9. #39
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    How do the results of a philosophy have any bearing on the roots of a philosophy, and which tradition it sprang from?

    I'm pretty sure the sum total of your thought here can be summed up as follows:

    If it's good, it comes from the enlightenment. If it's bad, it comes out of romanticism. If there's more going on there, feel free to share it with me.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  10. #40
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    You just said equality was an enlightenment value. Then you said equality was a romantic value.
    Perhaps you missed my irony. In fact equality tempered by freedom is an Enlightenment value, while inequality, created by the mass murder of 100 million of their own citizens over 70 years, is a Communist value, and of course utterly Romantic, as if mass murder would create equality.

    Only a Romantic could believe mass murder would create equality. It flies in the face of evidence and reason and freedom.

    It is absolute equality the Romantics believe in, and absolute equality is absolutely corrupt. While the Enlightenment practises equality limited by freedom.

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