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  1. #91
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You underestimate the danger of uprooting traditions hat have held societies together for millennia. That is, who is having sex with who is a matter of public concern.
    There is truth to this, and it is partly why I support gay marriage.

    Traditional marriage relied on the inequality of gender. The woman took the man's name, wears a veil at the ceremony (related to Middle Eastern female coverings), and is given away as property from father to groom. Marriage typically lasted a lifetime because a woman could not survive on her own. She was blocked out of careers and most ways of earning a living. Because of her reduced version of personhood, she could remain successfully subject to her husband, and so marriage would last a lifetime. Beautiful, traditional marriage in which one human dominates the personhood of another. This had created the bulwark of how society at large functioned with the hierarchies of power and relative levels of personhood. The great Patriarchy.

    Gay marriage undermines these hierarchical and exploitive structures in society. It overturns some of our deepest immoralities. This is why it has my vote.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #92
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Gay marriage undermines these hierarchical and exploitive structures in society. It overturns some of our deepest immoralities. This is why it has my vote.
    In the past, marriage was indeed a question of power and control, while we now consider marriage to be first and foremost a question of love.

    And I prefer love!

    Who wouldn't?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #93
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    Those who prefer power.

  4. #94
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    In the past, marriage was indeed a question of power and control, while we now consider marriage to be first and foremost a question of love.

    And I prefer love!

    Who wouldn't?
    I agree and it has moved towards equality, and some couples achieve equality, but not all. It comes out of a tradition that is deeply tainted and should not be held up as an ideal to move back towards. Even in the 1950's -1970's it wasn't even close to equality. Many of our mothers and grandmothers today were harmed and exploited and experienced a loss of personhood. It is not a remote past. And the extreme right wants to move us back in that direction. That aspect is not moral.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #95
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Those who prefer power.
    [ENFP Unicorn mode]

    Love is ze strongest power in ze universe!

    And French is its language, mon amour!

    [/ENFP Unicorn mode]
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  6. #96
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Ok, back on topic:

    Nobody has responded to this despite the fact that several of you have affirmed this screwy logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Thanks for the formula as it makes it easier to show how wrong you are.

    I don't know how many times I have to explain this shit, but there's no sense in comparing "acceptance of muderers" to "acceptance of imprisoning murderers" when imprisoning murderers is a viewpoint aimed at hurting murderers. That automatically makes imprisoning murderers worse and less acceptable than murdering even if you don't like murderers very much. And that's especially true if the people uttering acceptance of imprisoning murderers belong to a majority group that holds institutional power over those who espouse murder.

    You're closing off examination of ideas because you presume something that is repressive is not justified when clearly there are plenty of instances when we justify public repression of minority groups. But, you want to label certain ideas as phobia and hate so you can put them outside the category of rational ideas that can be justified.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  7. #97
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    Nobody has responded because it's a dodge that's not worth responding to.

  8. #98
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Ok, back on topic:

    Nobody has responded to this despite the fact that several of you have affirmed this screwy logic.
    This has already been logically addressed by me. I said that I do not accept everything, but that if I choose to accept something it does not make sense to also accept that which does not accept it. So, I choose to accept homosexuality and therefore cannot accept the non-acceptance of homosexuality. It also works the other way. I do not accept murder (generally) so I cannot accept the acceptance of murder. Thus, this point raises no serious logical problem.

    Ultimately, the disagreement comes to whether or not we should count homosexuality as a thing that is accepted. This comes back to the point where the burden is on you and Lark to show why it should not be accepted, which I phrased more specifically as showing how it is harmful. This is a request I feel neither of you have met.
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  9. #99
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There is truth to this, and it is partly why I support gay marriage.

    Traditional marriage relied on the inequality of gender. The woman took the man's name, wears a veil at the ceremony (related to Middle Eastern female coverings), and is given away as property from father to groom. Marriage typically lasted a lifetime because a woman could not survive on her own. She was blocked out of careers and most ways of earning a living. Because of her reduced version of personhood, she could remain successfully subject to her husband, and so marriage would last a lifetime. Beautiful, traditional marriage in which one human dominates the personhood of another. This had created the bulwark of how society at large functioned with the hierarchies of power and relative levels of personhood. The great Patriarchy.

    Gay marriage undermines these hierarchical and exploitive structures in society. It overturns some of our deepest immoralities. This is why it has my vote.
    wow seriously

    same-sex marriage is not a political issue. it's a human right's issue. it shouldn't be dependent on opinion nor political propaganda. let me be honest, i'm pretty offended by your reasoning.

  10. #100
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What does the final part mean, that because others were treating them as such you changed your opinion about them or because others were treating them like that they had begun to mirror it?

    Your overall point is interesting, could you clarify for me a bit more about how opposition to free speech or religious freedom and opposition to homosexuality differ? I mean is it that the former are older and exceptionally deterimental to aggregate human liberty and the later isnt?
    The second one, along with greater understanding of why and how my post was misinterpreted, and appreciation for how non-constructive the entire tone of the debate had become. It basically made me realize that, on a site that is already overwhelmingly accepting of gay rights, it might be more productive to challenge posters who take things too far in the other direction, basically doing my part to constrain the extent and duration of the 'pendulum swing' effect that Jennifer mentioned.

    In a word, yes (to both): free speech and religious freedom are fundamental rights directly affecting the totality of human existence , equally salient for people of any conceivable combination of human characteristics, which both inspire and support lesser rights, and make the pursuit of all lesser rights possible.....all points which have been debated for centuries, with demonstrated applicability outside of theoretical debate, allowing other institutions/concepts instrumental to human liberty and/or happiness adequate time to incorporate support for such rights into their respective theoretical paradigms and institutional structures.

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