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  1. #51
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I have compassion for the victims of abuse and contempt for the individuals responsible.

    I also believe it's ludicrous to assert that the existence of this abuse means that the church is an institution without value.

    Victor, in your posts you seem to think that these views are incompatible. Why is that?
    I don't think the institution is without value.

    I am focusing on one particular issue that I do think has high importance.

    To give you some idea how important I think it is, I would say this -

    The three great successes of liberal democracy are -

    1. The abolition of slavery by the House of Commons in 1833

    2. The emancipation of women in the twentieth century.

    3. The enforcing of laws against child sexual abuse in the West, over the past few decades.

    I recognize that the importance of the last is not appreciated on this site.

    And I think the next interesting question is to ask, why not?

    But I think I must try and answer the question at another time.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I don't think the institution is without value.

    I am focusing on one particular issue that I do think has high importance.

    To give you some idea how important I think it is, I would say this -

    The three great successes of liberal democracy are -

    1. The abolition of slavery by the House of Commons in 1833

    2. The emancipation of women in the twentieth century.

    3. The enforcing of laws against child sexual abuse in the West, over the past few decades.
    That's a pretty strong claim, a thread of its own.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #53
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    The expansion of freedom and civil rights generally happen in spite of, not because of, the government.
    You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. - Jack London

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo View Post
    The expansion of freedom and civil rights generally happen in spite of, not because of, the government.
    This is delightfully bizarre as it was the elected Government of Queen Victoria who abolished slavery in 1833, for the first time in human history.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I recognize that the importance of the last is not appreciated on this site.

    And I think the next interesting question is to ask, why not?
    I throw up my hands.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  6. #56
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The essence of Christianity is man's free will before God.



    Uhhhh.....one of the major tenets of Catholicism is that reason is a gift from God, so using one's reason to formulate one's relationship with God is not contrary to faith. But as Pascal stated, a major goal of reason is to also acknolwedge its limits.

    By claiming that Catholicism is only about external enforcement, you clearly ignore the great lengths that the inner life has been explored within the Catholic tradition. Pascal was just one famous example of such. Same with Thomas Kempis, who actually wrote a treatise titled the Inner Life. Then what about mystics like St. John of the Cross with Dark Night of the Soul. St. Therese's "little path to Christ". St. Francis of Assisi. Then of course my name-sakes, Charles Peguy, who concentrated much on the importance of the inner life.

    Then what about Leon Bloy, another Catholic writer. Here's the summary given by Frank O'Malley in "The Passion of Leon Bloy":
    ""Like the other scripituralized critics of modern civilization, Bloy was trying really, I suppose, to redeem the human personality from immersion in matter, to restore vitality of the interior light and love that had become a stereotype, to reverse the tendency to search for solutions of existence in terms of the external world rather than in the terms of the inward and spiritual. Bloy knew what Pascal meant when he said that the heart has its reasons that reason does not know. But this knowledge is not simply emotional: it reunites thought and feeling - and these we are always ready to divorce. This knowledge is, rather, intuitive, reaching reality more utterly and fully than knowledge by logic arranged in formula. The knowledge we speak of is that of the creative, whole, dynamized mind, the mind that is really free. And it is this kind of knowledge alone, knowledge inflamed by love, that permits what Berdyaev has termed an "extraordinary freedom of spirit, a prodigy of free faith, a spontaneous recognition of 'things not seen'." In other words, this is the knowledge that permits vision - the vision of God. This warm, desirous, centripetal knowledge Bloy possessed. His thought was indeed kindled in love, in personality- and personality, for Bloy, was the sacred achievement of vision."
    Then what about the immeasurable Catholic influence on the philosophy of Personalism, which concerns the importance of the human personality and inter-relationships with others in regards to the development of an authentic life. Then the Catholic Existentialism of Gabriel Marcel.

    Oh yeah, can't forget St. Augustine, who was perhaps one of the first persons to address the inner life to any great extent with his book Confessions - the first autobiography ever written. From my own thread concerning Augustinian spirituality:


    Seriously, I could go on endlessly about this.
    My point was that the essence of religion is obedience to external authority. All philosophy, spirituality, and talk of pursuit of inner life is wholly superfluous to the identity of Catholicism. It is but bait to lure in and beguile those eager to seek meaning in life.

    If authority factor was not prominent, there would be no distinction between religion and philosophy. Religious teachings would be criticized and altered just like doctrines in articles of scholarly journals of philosophy. This isnt happening as the teachings have remained primarily static.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I throw up my hands.
    OK, you can lower your hands - this is not a gun I've got here.

  8. #58
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I think Catholicism is a sad and destructive religion.

    In my books, it provides no merit to its members/brain-washed sheep.

    I have no respect for this religion, none at all.

    It saddens me deeply, that children, and foreigners alike are subjected and subjugated to the ridiculous and detrimental hogwash that catholicism provides.

    I can respect many/some religions, but catholicism most certainly is not one of them.

    And ugh, at the pope and the diocese and the bishops and their indulgences of power.

    Yuck, yuck yuck!!!

    And as for "celibate" priests who molest boys.

    Fuck those assholes!!!

    They should be confined to, and detained in a large traveling bulletproof Plexiglas box for two months in every capitol in every state until the day they die!!

    I could go on...but I probably shouldn't.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I think Catholicism is a sad and destructive religion.

    In my books, it provides no merit to its members/brain-washed sheep.

    I have no respect for this religion, none at all.

    It saddens me deeply, that children, and foreigners alike are subjected and subjugated to such ridiculous and detrimental hogwash that catholicism provides.

    I can respect many/some religions, but catholicism most certainly is not one of them.

    And ugh, at the pope and the diocese and the bishops and their indulgences of power.

    Yuck, yuck yuck!!!

    And as for "celibate" priests who molest boys.

    Fuck those assholes!!!

    They should be confined and detained in a large Plexiglas box for two months in every capitol in every state until the day they die!!

    I could go on...but I probably shouldn't.

    Sackcloth and ashes I believe is traditional.

  10. #60
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Victor, I will discuss this topic with you when we are both in purgatory around 60 years time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

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