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  1. #31
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I hate the Catholic church, both past and present!!!

    Yucky, despicable, demoralizing, and just plain sad and infuriating!!

    Bleh!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #32
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Here we live under the rule of law. And the law says it is rape.

    Rape is not a psychological problem. Rape is a crime.

    And for an institution to facilitate and cover up rape is an offense.

    And we vigorously pursue, and continue to pursue, the offenders in our Courts.
    Victor, there are many different ways via which to view "pedophile." You don't get to choose which framework is valid, especially by semantically slight of hand. (Frankly, it doesn't matter what your country sees it as, if you're discussing this with people from all over the globe, correct?)

    Peguy was obviously discussing the issue from a moral and psychological viewpoint, as was I. Those are valid ways to approach the topic of "pedophile." you actually seem to be skipping among various frameworks (moral, philosophical, legal, psychological) in whatever way suits your purposes, post to post.

    I do see it as a fallacy that you equate "pedophile" with "rape," even if you prefer to stick with your framework of "legal issue." The legality of something is merely how human society most realistically thinks it can punish something, with the intent of stopping it; it deals not at all with the "essence and definition" of what a particular act actually might be, in truth. Especially if you're going to explore spiritual/moral culpability (considering the Church is involved), the "legal framework" seems quite inadequate to me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #33
    Sniffles
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    I wish to publically reply to a PM Victor sent me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor
    May I make a note of personal explanation?

    I have received the best Catholic education that can be provided in a Western country and I am a member of the Australian Catholic University.

    It is my moral duty to listen to and understand the victims, as it is yours.
    This goes to show why I have utter contempt for "Catholic" education. Many of the biggest hypocrites, sluts, morons, and other degenerate people I've ever met went through "Catholic" education of some form. I'm thankful I never went to Catholic school.

    And employing cheap rhetoric, claiming that I'm ignoring the suffering of the victims will get you nowhere. I certainly know about it and understand it. Yet, unlike you and so many others, I don't misuse their sufferings as an excuse to throw rocks at the Catholic spiritual tradition.

    Bragg about your Catholic education all you want, it's clear there's much more you need to learn.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I hate the Catholic church, both past and present!!!

    Yucky, despicable, demoralizing, and just plain sad and infuriating!!

    Bleh!!
    I'll be nice and choose to just ignore this post.

  5. #35
    Sniffles
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    Here's something I posted in the Augustinian thread which also sheds light on this issue:

    "The men of to-day who are so far from Christianity are fond of saying that the Church ought to be made up of perfect people, saints, and complain of her that she includes so many faulty persons, sinners, and pseudo-Christians. It is the standing argument against Christianity, and it is one that betrays non-comprehension or forgetfulness of the nature and essence of the Church. The Church exists before all else for sinners, for imperfect and wandering beings. Her origins are in Heaven and her principle is eternal, but she operates on the earth and in time, among elements submerged in sin; her first business is to succour an erring world at grips with suffering, to save it for eternal life and raise it to the heavens. The essence of Christianity is a union of eternity and time, of Heaven and earth, of the divine and the human, and not any separation between them: the human and temporal are not to be despised and rejected but enlightened and transfigured."
    --Nikolai Berdyaev, "The Worth of Christianity and the Unworthiness of Christians"

  6. #36
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'll be nice and choose to just ignore this post.
    I think you ought not. I wholly agree with the value judgment expressed above! Review my post in reply to OP before you prepare your response to this.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #37
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Here's something I posted in the Augustinian thread which also sheds light on this issue:

    "The men of to-day who are so far from Christianity are fond of saying that the Church ought to be made up of perfect people, saints, and complain of her that she includes so many faulty persons, sinners, and pseudo-Christians. It is the standing argument against Christianity, and it is one that betrays non-comprehension or forgetfulness of the nature and essence of the Church. The Church exists before all else for sinners, for imperfect and wandering beings. Her origins are in Heaven and her principle is eternal, but she operates on the earth and in time, among elements submerged in sin; her first business is to succour an erring world at grips with suffering, to save it for eternal life and raise it to the heavens. The essence of Christianity is a union of eternity and time, of Heaven and earth, of the divine and the human, and not any separation between them: the human and temporal are not to be despised and rejected but enlightened and transfigured."
    --Nikolai Berdyaev, "The Worth of Christianity and the Unworthiness of Christians"
    My question is, how is it possible to be a sincere 'Christian' when the essence of Christianity as that of any religion is obedience to authority. To be sincere in any belief, one must earnestly believe in it, this is the definition of sincerity itself. Yet how can one earnestly believe in something that coerces his thoughts into acceptance of a formula which has no regard for his thoughts or the inner being by and large?

    You can of course supress your inner being and accept whatever formula that be and convince yourself that your inner being is exactly like what it is 'supposed' to be, but sooner or later the true inner life shall rebel. So such sincerity can only be short-lived, afterwards it will require some clever machinations to carry on the facade. Preachers and religious folk by and large have been very adept at this, but eventually their true inner life takes revenge and shall spill aghast. It inevitably turns rotten because of how much it has been disturbed by supression by the external regime. Preachers raping kids is a distinct example of this.

    These preachers would not have gone as corrupt if they were allowed an opportunity to tend to their inner lives as opposed to subjugated to an external regime which has robbed them of nearly all inner virtue.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #38

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    I have compassion for the victims of abuse and contempt for the individuals responsible.

    I also believe it's ludicrous to assert that the existence of this abuse means that the church is an institution without value.

    Victor, in your posts you seem to think that these views are incompatible. Why is that?
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I think you ought not. I wholly agree with the value judgment expressed above! Review my post in response to OP before you prepare your response to this.
    Hmmm....your basic point seems to be along the lines of the standard religion being the "opium of the masses" type argument - religion largely be designed to keep the common people in line.

    Yes and no. In regards to Catholicism - or even Christianity in general, this does not entirely apply. It's often noted that in contrast to other Near Eastern traditions, the Biblical tradition involves man continously questioning and even confronting God at various times.

    Questioning different aspects of the universe, and thus understanding the nature of God, has always been an important element to the Christian intellectual tradition. Reason and faith are not enemies, but rather allies.

    For the last 50 years or so, it's now well-established among scholars on the importance of Christianity on the development of science as we know it today.

    Concerning the political implications; well Christianity has always held great skepticism towards earthly authority. Linda C. Raeder provides a good summary of this in "Augustine and the Case for Limited Government":
    "Augustine was the first major philosopher to reject the deeply normative politics of classical thought and its conception of the state as the highest achievement of social existence. For Aristotle, the polis was the “perfect community”—the fulfillment of human association and the precondition for the cultivation of intellectual and ethical excellence. Cicero too defined the state in normative terms; a “republic,” he maintained, was an “assemblage [of men] associated by a common acknowledgement of right and by a community of interests.”3 To the classical mind, human flourishing was inextricably entwined with the flourishing of the state; personal and political fulfillments were symbiotic and inseparable.4

    Augustine, the mystical Christian sage, was not impressed with such views. For he held a higher allegiance—to his God—along side which the human state and its strictly secular concerns paled to insignificance. Moreover, he held no illusions regarding the essence of political authority—coerciveness. Coercive rule was, for him, a necessary aspect of human existence but certainly not one worthy of reverence..... "
    Not exactly the mentality conductive to an authoritarian regime now isn't it? Leo XIII wrote extensively about this in his encyclical on Human liberty. In order for liberty to truely exist, one must adhere to a principle higher than the state, and that principle most often is provided by religion.

    Christianity teaches that man is sinful, therefore a leader cannot be endowed with absolute powers. This was very much the case during the Medieval period, where the power of Kings were actually significantly limited, especially by the Church.

    In terms of social doctrine, the Catholic Church has always insisted on "subsidiarity", ie power concentrated at the lowest levels possible, so as to limit the power of the government.

    By contrast, as many historians now acknowledge, as secularism gained ground, the old notions of human sinfulness(ie imperfect) were also swept aside, replaced by the notion that humans could perfect themselves through reason. And thus government itself should govern through reason. It was under this that we saw the rise of "Enlightened Despotism", where rulers essentially centralized power to an extent unthinkable during Medieval times.

    And of course it was from "Enlightened Despotism" that the origins of the totalitarian state arise.

    Yet this isn't even restricted to Christianity. Chinese Emperors ruled under the Mandate of Heaven. Yet that mandate declared that a ruler must be just in order to obtain it. If a ruler wasn't just, then the people were obligated by this mandate to overthrow it.

    And so many other cases. Secularism has proven more susceptible to brutal authoritarian measures than religion.

  10. #40
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Bye-bye Kiddo...

    Hello Peguy!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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