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  1. #21
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    hurch

  2. #22
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    I never go to Hurch, myself.

  3. #23
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Hey! I'd just gotten up!
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #24
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    hurch
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  5. #25
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    The notion that the Church as an institution deliberately tries to cover-up sex crimes is based upon a rather perverted and simplistic look at the Catholic mentality.

    During the Medieval period, criminals could find sancturary from authorities within the domain of a church. You could twist this around and say that the Church deliberately harbored criminals. Or you could say that this concept was based upon the notion that the laws of God reigns supreme over any earthly powers; and major part of God's reign was the notion of mercy and forgiveness towards others.

    Same basic principle applies here in regards to pedophile priests. Wrong-doing cannot be tolerated, but then again a major element of Catholicism is forgiveness and giving people chances to redeemn themselves.

    It should also be noted why pedophiles often are drawn to the priesthood. I actually watched one documentary about this and they interviewed a convicted pedophile priest why he decided to join the priesthood. He talked about his personal struggles with his tendencies and felt deeply that a life devoted to God and high ideals would help him overcome it. Of course, we're all human and we all have spiritual laspes. That's why the Church provides the sacrament of reconcilliation, so people can once again unite themselves with God. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    If we take this view, then it changes the picture. Pedophiles are not monstors, they're humans like anybody else. This basic fact is lost in much of the media sensationalism on this issue. Catholicism doesn't think that way.

    Victor is unwilling to understand that. But oh well, it's his lost.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The notion that the Church as an institution deliberately tries to cover-up sex crimes is based upon a rather perverted and simplistic look at the Catholic mentality.

    During the Medieval period, criminals could find sancturary from authorities within the domain of a church. You could twist this around and say that the Church deliberately harbored criminals. Or you could say that this concept was based upon the notion that the laws of God reigns supreme over any earthly powers; and major part of God's reign was the notion of mercy and forgiveness towards others.

    Same basic principle applies here in regards to pedophile priests. Wrong-doing cannot be tolerated, but then again a major element of Catholicism is forgiveness and giving people chances to redeemn themselves.

    It should also be noted why pedophiles often are drawn to the priesthood. I actually watched one documentary about this and they interviewed a convicted pedophile priest why he decided to join the priesthood. He talked about his personal struggles with his tendencies and felt deeply that a life devoted to God and high ideals would help him overcome it. Of course, we're all human and we all have spiritual laspes. That's why the Church provides the sacrament of reconcilliation, so people can once again unite themselves with God. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

    If we take this view, then it changes the picture. Pedophiles are not monstors, they're humans like anybody else. This basic fact is lost in much of the media sensationalism on this issue. Catholicism doesn't think that way.

    Victor is unwilling to understand that. But oh well, it's his loss.
    The problem lies at two levels. The first is focus and the second is extent.

    The focus should be on the suffering of the victims.
    The focus should not be on defending the institution.

    The extent is not understood.
    The extent is not understood even in Western cultures under the rule of law.

    And most Roman Catholics do not live in Western cultures under the rule of law, they live in developing countries that do not practise the rule of law in this matter.

    And the extent is not understood over the last 1,000 years, never mind the last 2,000 years.

    Does any of this matter? Yes, because it profoundly shapes the human personality.

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    ...It should also be noted why pedophiles often are drawn to the priesthood. I actually watched one documentary about this and they interviewed a convicted pedophile priest why he decided to join the priesthood. He talked about his personal struggles with his tendencies and felt deeply that a life devoted to God and high ideals would help him overcome it.
    Thank you for pointing that out so articulately.

    I agree that the picture is far more complex than it is sometimes painted as. Some people do flee to the church in order to hide their evil and prey on others, but often people do go to the church as a balance against the darkness in them they wish to eradicate... and end up sometimes failing. And sometimes it's the same person who experiences both impulses -- the lust of the flesh and the desperation of the spirit.

    So I don't think we can write anyone off up front. I've known both types of people in the church, and we all know the excesses of the televangelists in protestant circles, some of whom are wolves in sheep's clothing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thank you for pointing that out so articulately.

    I agree that the picture is far more complex than it is sometimes painted as. Some people do flee to the church in order to hide their evil and prey on others, but often people do go to the church as a balance against the darkness in them they wish to eradicate... and end up sometimes failing. And sometimes it's the same person who experiences both impulses -- the lust of the flesh and the desperation of the spirit.

    So I don't think we can write anyone off up front. I've known both types of people in the church, and we all know the excesses of the televangelists in protestant circles, some of whom are wolves in sheep's clothing.
    Rape is not lust.

    Rape is power.

    And the purpose of power is power.

    And what greater expression of power is the rape of a child?

    And what greater expression of institutional power than to facilitate and cover up the rape of a child?

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Rape is not lust.

    Rape is power.

    And the purpose of power is power.

    And what greater expression of power is the rape of a child?

    And what greater expression of institutional power than to facilitate and cover up the rape of a child?
    I think you're over-theorizing and thus erroneously simplifying a more complicated disorder.

    You are also applying adult male-female rape dynamics to pedophile behavior, which might or might not be accurate depending on the situation and people in question.

    (You might as well equate homosexual desire to gang-rape behavior. The act might involve two men screwing, but the dynamics are VERY different.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think you're over-theorizing and thus erroneously simplifying a more complicated disorder.

    You are also applying adult male-female rape dynamics to pedophile behavior, which might or might not be accurate depending on the situation and people in question.

    (You might as well equate homosexual desire to gang-rape behavior. The act might involve two men screwing, but the dynamics are VERY different.)
    Here we live under the rule of law. And the law says it is rape.

    Rape is not a psychological problem. Rape is a crime.

    And for an institution to facilitate and cover up rape is an offense.

    And we vigorously pursue, and continue to pursue, the offenders in our Courts.

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