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  1. #11
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is not so far from the truth as the abused tend to abuse
    You really have gone off the deep end now. As if abuse is somehow a distinctly Catholic thing.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You really have gone off the deep end now. As if abuse is somehow a distinctly Catholic thing.
    It is not the abuse that is distinctly Roman Catholic, it is the institutional cover-up.

    And the cover-up has been going on for much longer than the last 50 years for which we have criminal convictions.

    And it has only be brought before the criminal courts quite recently in the West. In developing countries it is still occurring unchecked.

    As I write this the Canberra Times is full of the conviction and sentencing of Br Kosta for many child rapes. And the editor-at-large of the Canberra Times, Jack Waterford, who is a good Roman Catholic, said the fault lies with the institution for covering it up for so long.

    The saga of course here continues with many court cases pending and the institution fighting all the way.

    The institution is profoundly morally corrupt.

    The Pope is coming here for World Youth Day and he will be met by hundreds of thousands cheering youth. The very youth he has failed to protect.

  3. #13
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    I can't believe you just sat here and talked about "Priests raping children!". That is the most pathetically overused argument, and it is indicative of someone who is uneducated in the subject of which he speaks. Generalizing the entire Catholic Church based on a select few individuals while ignoring the rest of us who aren't child molesters is far from acceptable. No one has EVER claimed that every single person within the Catholic Church holds tight to its beliefs and values. There are disturbed individuals scattered everywhere just waiting for their opportunity to strike and over 1.131 BILLION Catholics so of course we're going to get our fair share in the distribution. These kinds of people are everywhere, but it seems like people only care about it when it involves a Priest. How is the Pope of all people supposed to know who is lying and who is not lying when they make their vows during their ordination? How is anyone supposed to know that someone who spends at least ten years studying to be ordained has ulterior motives?

    Lastly, I cannot believe someone tried to show appreciation to one of their religion's most important teachers and saints only to have some bitter individual shoot it down with slander that has nothing to do with this thread. I don't understand why this forum is still called "Philosophy and Spirituality" because there is no tolerance for spiritual beliefs on this forum. If you post something about your religion here, be prepared to have everyone who DOESN'T believe it swarm your thread.

    And to Peguy, I am sorry that this thread has been pretty much ruined. I came into this thread hoping for a decent discussion. Confessions is one of my favorite books, and I think of St. Augustine as an admirable person for putting all the personal information and "confessions" that he did in there. It is a difficult thing to admit things about yourself that you aren't proud of with as much honesty and detail as Augustine did. Here's one of my favorite quotes by Augustine:
    "You called and cried out loud and shattered my deafness. You were radiant and resplendent, you put to flight my blindness. You were fragrant, and I drew in my breath and now pant after you. I tasted you, and I feel but hunger and thirst for you. You touched me, and I am set on fire to attain the peace which is yours." -St. Augustine of Hippo

    Edit: You obviously just have something against the Church because if you were really concerned with victims of molestation, you would know that the most common profile of a child molester is a married heterosexual male.
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  4. #14
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    Default The Silence of the Lambs

    Let's put this thread back on the rails and talk about Augustine.

    He has confessed to a life of debauchery.

    In his day, it meant debauchery with slaves and children.

    And yet we hear nothing about the slaves and children he raped. We know nothing about the damage he did to them in the short term and nothing about the long term psychological damage.

    And it is fair to say that this silence of the lambs is being perpetuated right here.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And it is fair to say that this silence of the lambs is being perpetuated right here.
    Why? Because if we fail to discount an entire institution wholesale based on the regrettable actions of a tiny fraction of its members, we're obviously trying to protect pedophiles?

    I guess we need to have a second American Revolution because some senators take bribes, and disband the police force because a few of them are brutal. While we're at it, we'd better put the United Way and the Red Cross out of business. A couple of employees have been caught embezzling donated funds, so there's no way those organizations can be worth anything.

    Whew. I feel so much better now.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Why? Because if we fail to discount an entire institution wholesale based on the regrettable actions of a tiny fraction of its members, we're obviously trying to protect pedophiles?

    I guess we need to have a second American Revolution because some senators take bribes, and disband the police force because a few of them are brutal. While we're at it, we'd better put the United Way and the Red Cross out of business. A couple of employees have been caught embezzling donated funds, so there's no way those organizations can be worth anything.

    Whew. I feel so much better now.
    I appreciate your point but it is not just a few. It has operated for a very long time across many states. And the institution is an authoritarian hierarchy. And the hierarchy knew about the crimes being committed and facilitated them and covered them up.

    These are very serious crimes committed by a highly organized and disciplined group. They were in a perfect position to perpetuate the crimes against vulnerable people in their care and then cover them up. And they did.

    What is important now is to listen to their victims. In particular it is important to listen to the suffering of their victims.

    It is morally insupportable to silence the victims while listening to the perpetrators.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It is morally insupportable to silence the victims while listening to the perpetrators.
    What I don't understand is why you think this is what the people on this thread are doing.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
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  8. #18
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    Default Schismogenesis

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    What I don't understand is why you think this is what the people on this thread are doing.
    What a good question because it is difficult to answer. There are a number of people on this thread, and there is only one I can speak for with any accuracy.

    But let me have a go - let me try and answer your question.

    It seems to me there is a kind of debate going on. One side wants to present the ideal and the other side wants to present the real.

    Those presenting the ideal are outraged that their ideal is being besmirched. While the one presenting the real is white with anger at the institutional crimes.

    So we have outrage meeting white hot anger. And we are trying to mediate between the two with reason and courtesy.

    However, the more one side presents its case, the more outraged becomes the other side.

    So we have the more outraged one side becomes, the more white with anger becomes the other side.

    This is called schismogenesis, coined by the anthropologist, Gregory Bateson, to describe escalating conflict between two New Guinea tribes.

    So we have the connection between two New Guinea tribes and both sides to this debate.

    I guess the question is, do we want to escalate the conflict or do we want to de-escalate the conflict or do we want to do something else entirely different?

    I guess I would say it is fascinating to discover how similar we are to two New Guinea tribes.

    And I would further say, that as we move further out of literacy into the Noosphere, we will find ourselves more and more like New Guinea tribes.

    So perhaps I can answer your question by saying, I think we are being schismogenetic.

  9. #19
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    [Posts moved from here].
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  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The problem is the disconnect between the ideal and the reality.

    The ideal is intelligent and beautiful and the reality is authoritarian and ugly.

    But how ugly?

    We do know that this institution has been raping children and covering it up for the last sixty years. We know this because we have the criminal convictions to prove it.

    But historians are now discovering that this has been going on for the best part of the last one thousand years.

    It seems this institution has been practising Droit du Seigner since the High Middle Ages towards unprotected children.

    And it is this Droit du Seigner that has been destroying the spiritual life of children for about one thousand years.

    So the ideal of this institution is the riches of the spiritual life while the reality has been the destruction of the spiritual life of the vulnerable.
    What is beautiful is the lofty ideals of spirituality enmeshed in religious practice. My argument is as follows below.

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    It is conceivable that religion be defined as a worldview that propounds a theory of ethics, a view of cosmology, and a perspective on eschatology. Now, what is different here from a philosophy? In philosophy all things must be questioned and established only by virtue of their truthfulness. Yet religion on the other hand accepts or rejects doctrines in relation to their stance with authority. Or in other words, if an idea agrees with what is vouched by the authority, it is accepted, and if it does not it is rejected. If the word of authority was not highly vouched for, it would be very difficult to establish a code of behavior that is observed very scrupulously by the multitude as we notice for this to be the case with nearly all prominent religious schools of thought. This is so because if people were not told exactly how to think and were made to refrain from questioning what they are told their actions would not be in conformity with one another as inevitably people would have turned to their own ways of thinking about ethics and for this reason their ethical notions would differ from the ethical notions of their neighbors.

    Hence, the fourth tenet of religiosity and the most important is acceptance of certain maxims on authority. Very often more than only a few maxims of the religion are accepted on authority and the whole teaching is instead. This is most prominently demonstrated by fundamentalistic religious schools of thought.

    Thus, authority is the essence of religion, not philosophy or spirituality.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If we want to be spiritual we have to seek out qualities of character on our own endeavor, as after all, we cannot claim any particular quality as our own unless we had a personal incentive to acquire it. Or in other words, I can legitimately claim to be a charitable person if I give to the poor on my own will, but not at all if I give to the poor strictly because I was instructed to do so by my religious authorities.

    Because unquestionable obedience to authority is the primary tenet of religiosity, religion is diametrically opposed to all genuine practices of spirituality.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why do priests rape children? This is an obvious example of an abuse of power. This is to be expected when the stature of authority is esteemed above all else, as in that case all things will be permissible for the authority figure, nothing shall be stopping them from turning corrupt. They will have very little of a personal incentive not to become corrupt as religious maxims invariably orient not around pursuit of virtue but around obedience to authority. The mention of pursuit of virtue in light of this becomes mere rhetoric to beguile us into accepting authority without question.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It is only fitting that religion in practice shall be ugly, and it is not at all a paradox that it seems to stand in sharp contrast with the spiritual practices it purports to endorse.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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