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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    In fact, technically...

    It's rather the American and British oil lobbies that were allied to the Islamists, and that allowed the Islamists to grow and gather vast amounts of petrodollars. For instance, the Bush dynasty still has very close economical ties with the Bin Laden dynasty. And the oil lobby is not known for its excessive liberalism...

    The "Left" as you describe it, has nothing in common with the Salafis or the al Saud. Of course, you have a few very naive militants (Trostkysts most of the time, at least in France), who consider that the Muslim Brotherhood or the Hezbollah are in fact courageous freedom fighters, but this trend is (fortunately) more the exception than the pragmatic majority. Anti-Semitism transcends what we call the Left or the Right anyway...
    I've attended public meetings at the Australian National University run by the Muslim Students' Association, where the Marxist Left were in solidarity with the Islamists.

    On the face of it, it seems odd, as the Marxists are atheists while the Islamists are theists. But I guess they work on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And we are the enemy.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I've attended public meetings at the Australian National University run by the Muslim Students' Association, where the Marxist Left were in solidarity with the Islamists.

    On the face of it, it seems odd, as the Marxists are atheists while the Islamists are theists. But I guess they work on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And we are the enemy.
    Victor I'm going to keep asking you about your use of "we".

  3. #43
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I've attended public meetings at the Australian National University run by the Muslim Students' Association, where the Marxist Left were in solidarity with the Islamists.

    On the face of it, it seems odd, as the Marxists are atheists while the Islamists are theists. But I guess they work on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And we are the enemy.
    Yes, a few very vocal Marxist militants are this way but not all of them (And our medias often prefer the first and purposefully neglect the more moderate majority: moderate people are less interesting, I presume?). I've attended a few World Social Fora, and I've witnessed the ideological fight between different branches of contemporary Marxists, especially over the question of Islamism.

    Trotskysm often works on the premise that the more you damage the current liberal democracy, the more you prepare the advent of the so-called "unavoidable" world revolution. So yes indeed, they're often the "friends" of Islamists.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Victor I'm going to keep asking you about your use of "we".
    It's not the royal 'we'. It's the etribal 'we'.

    Plainly the etribal 'we' is disturbing to literate individuals, but literate individualism is now the content of etribalism.

    You may kick against the pricks of 'we' in etribalism. But your only alternative is to go back to your books and abandon Central.

    And we both know you won't abandon Central, but at the same time you are creature of your books. You are trapped between two cultures: the literate and the electronic. I might say you are homeless. You speak to us from your homeless mind, scrabbling between two cultures, at home in none.

    You are quite like the deracinated muslim immigrants who have discovered that violence gives identity.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's not the royal 'we'. It's the etribal 'we'.

    Plainly the etribal 'we' is disturbing to literate individuals, but literate individualism is now the content of etribalism.

    You may kick against the pricks of 'we' in etribalism. But your only alternative is to go back to your books and abandon Central.

    And we both know you won't abandon Central, but at the same time you are creature of your books. You are trapped between two cultures: the literate and the electronic. I might say you are homeless. You speak to us from your homeless mind, scrabbling between two cultures, at home in none.

    You are quite like the deracinated muslim immigrants who have discovered that violence gives identity.
    You replied with a load of nonsense which was pretty much what I expected.

    The reality is that there isnt any "we" Victor, its called an "imagined gallery" or "appeal to the gallery", it demonstrates a pretty low level of discussion ability, debate skill or even, sometimes, intellectual grasp upon things.

    Its been more than amply demonstrated before now that you dont speak for the forum, I dont know anyone who would pretend to besides yourself, even in the last couple of days I saw at least one "discussion" thread which was mainly yourself posting, presumably, to yourself. I've posted threads before which didnt prove popular but I didnt go back and post repeatedly as though they were and a mass of posters had been simply too enthralled to post anything.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You replied with a load of nonsense which was pretty much what I expected.

    The reality is that there isnt any "we" Victor, its called an "imagined gallery" or "appeal to the gallery", it demonstrates a pretty low level of discussion ability, debate skill or even, sometimes, intellectual grasp upon things.

    Its been more than amply demonstrated before now that you dont speak for the forum, I dont know anyone who would pretend to besides yourself, even in the last couple of days I saw at least one "discussion" thread which was mainly yourself posting, presumably, to yourself. I've posted threads before which didnt prove popular but I didnt go back and post repeatedly as though they were and a mass of posters had been simply too enthralled to post anything.
    Can you forgive me if I often include myself in the "we" Victor is using, and if I say that what he's saying is making perfect sense (at least, to me)?

    It's rather clear you do not appreciate his communication style, but I do not appreciate yours either. Does that mean we have a cognitive dissonance here? Aren't we here to learn how to communicate with different cognitive styles?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Can you forgive me if I often include myself in the "we" Victor is using
    Not often enough to make it to Bali, I'm guessing.

    If we've done as many of the terrible things Victor alleges we've done, I don't see why we can't let a few of us cut up a soldier or two.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  8. #48
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure that confering labels like terrorist isnt counter productive you know. There is a status associated with that and those responsible for this atrocity were consciously seeking that status.

    Who cares about the private or personal ideological motives or "compelling reasons" of kills such as the gun man at Dunblane who massacred those children? And I do think there's moral equivalence there, I dont care about the content or motivation of psycho killers so much as the fact they kill. Treating it as crime pure and simple seems to be the best response. Framing it that way and being unwavering about it.
    Yes. All these debates about ideology, root causes, and historical responsibility are just a distraction when it comes to addressing actual acts of violence being committed. I'm all for understanding the underlying forces and motivations at work, and the legitimate concerns of groups who feel oppressed, but none of it justifies killing and injuring random unrelated people. These are crimes, and should be treated as as such.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes. All these debates about ideology, root causes, and historical responsibility are just a distraction when it comes to addressing actual acts of violence being committed. I'm all for understanding the underlying forces and motivations at work, and the legitimate concerns of groups who feel oppressed, but none of it justifies killing and injuring random unrelated people. These are crimes, and should be treated as as such.
    Well no one analyses the actions of racists, there was a racist nail bomber a while back in the UK, I remember it and it was just crime pure and simple and they stopped that guy.

    These people have an unreal sense of grievance and that's all we need to know, if they want to influence decisions like foreign policy well they can vote or take the usual actions that anyone else would.

  10. #50
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well no one analyses the actions of racists, there was a racist nail bomber a while back in the UK, I remember it and it was just crime pure and simple and they stopped that guy.

    These people have an unreal sense of grievance and that's all we need to know, if they want to influence decisions like foreign policy well they can vote or take the usual actions that anyone else would.
    In the U.S. people sometimes analyze racist groups like neo-Nazis or skinheads, especially if they seem to be gaining more followers in certain areas, or becoming more active/militant. This is usually geared to countering whatever drives (perhaps disgruntled or alienated) young people to the groups, as well as heading off violence before it happens, but isn't used to excuse their hate speech and actions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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