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  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    How would you propose to fix it?
    Our strategy is to support moderate Islam against radical Islam.

    So we support religious Islam in line with our own values of religious freedom, while we defeat political Islam in line with our values of political freedom.

    So we defeat a totalitarian ideology with political and religious freedom.

  2. #12
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Our strategy is to support moderate Islam against radical Islam.

    So we support religious Islam in line with our own values of religious freedom, while we defeat political Islam in line with our values of political freedom.

    So we defeat a totalitarian ideology with political and religious freedom.
    Stop it. Stop it right now.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It might be nice to think it is our fault, then we could fix it ourselves. Unfortunately it is the result of political ideology.

    Naturally we are confused because Islam is at once a religion and at the same time a political ideology.

    And for many decades now we have seen this ideology put into effect, and the London Street was the latest example.
    Who are "we" in your mind? Britain isn't my country.

    Regarding political ideology, this is your assertion. The attacker himself called for British troops to leave Muslim lands. And attacks like this were not happening in Britain before they occupied Muslim lands.

    In reality the very definition "terrorism" is problematic. If a white gang attacks a black man in the same way, it would be called a "hate crime", if a Muslim does it to a soldier, it's "terrorism". Strange.

  4. #14
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Who are "we" in your mind? Britain isn't my country.

    Regarding political ideology, this is your assertion. The attacker himself called for British troops to leave Muslim lands. And attacks like this were not happening in Britain before they occupied Muslim lands.
    Britain has already occupied Muslim lands for centuries (and so did France, Russia, Spain... et caetera). The kind of radical Islamism we now see is in fact a fairly recent phenomena, historically speaking. The most obvious culprit is Wahhabism, and Wahhabism was created during the late XVIIIth century (more than a millenia after the Hegira). During most of its historical existence, it was an insignificant, extremely xenophobic, religious ideology restricted to the remotest and most backwards parts of the desertic Arabic peninsula, but unfortunately, Oil and British colonial politics changed and messed everything when they thought it was a good idea to support the Al Saud tribe against the (moderate) Ottomans.

    So in its current state, Wahhabism is, somehow, a monstruous child created by the West. Wahhabism is a direct child of the enlightenment age (in the same way Fascism and Communism are), and I suppose our friend Victor should think more carefully about this paradox.

    In reality the very definition "terrorism" is problematic. If a white gang attacks a black man in the same way, it would be called a "hate crime", if a Muslim does it to a soldier, it's "terrorism". Strange.
    Indeed, it is strange because according to the international definition of terrorism, terrorists are supposed to target civilians. And here, the victim was a professional soldier.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is reminescent of the butchering of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam by an Islamist.

    It does show that our Intelligence Service can't keep us safe.

    And it does show that bombs are not necessary for Islamic terrorism, meat cleavers will do.
    Or the Shankill Butchers Victor, you heard of them?

    Not among your enemies list probably.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saudade View Post
    And the EDL grows and grows.

    Yeah, makes you wonder, most of these groups are riddled with or actually honeytraps set up by the security forces and these murderers were tracked by the security forces, they even tried to recruit one of them or an associate of one of them.

    There's something to some of the anti-government concerns about whether public services can be trusted to fufil functions as they should when success would mean they're out of work.

    There's also something strange about how the right wing and nationalistic elements in england have been stimulated since the eighties, its part of the gradual and general shift to the right wing I've been seeing, not perhaps a "true right" but a permissive, capitalist, police state arrangement.

  7. #17
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    During most of its historical existence, it was an insignificant, extremely xenophobic, religious ideology restricted to the remotest and most backwards parts of the desertic Arabic peninsula, but unfortunately, Oil and British colonial politics changed and messed everything when they thought it was a good idea to support the Al Saud tribe against the (moderate) Ottomans.

    Didn't they support another tribe against the Ottoman's? And then somehow Al Saud ended up ruling over the kingdom?
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saudade View Post
    And the EDL grows and grows.

    Yeah, makes you wonder, most of these groups are riddled with or actually honeytraps set up by the security forces and these murderers were tracked by the security forces, they even tried to recruit one of them or an associate of one of them.

    There's something to some of the anti-government concerns about whether public services can be trusted to fufil functions as they should when success would mean they're out of work.

    There's also something strange about how the right wing and nationalistic elements in england have been stimulated since the eighties, its part of the gradual and general shift to the right wing I've been seeing, not perhaps a "true right" but a permissive, capitalist, police state arrangement.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Or the Shankill Butchers Victor, you heard of them?

    Not among your enemies list probably.
    You have presented a relentless opposition to me personally for such a long time. I have come to understand this is because you are a tribal catholic in Northern Ireland.

    And I myself have been touched by tribal catholicism as the catholic nuns in Picton, New South Wales, Australia instilled in me a tribal hatred of Protestants. I imagine you have been told the same stories to instill tribal hatred.

    However in Australia we have let go the tribal hatreds between Protestants and Catholics. But apparently these tribal hatred still persist in Northern Ireland.

    But even worse than tribal hatreds, the Irish clergy brought institutional child sexual abuse to Australia. And as I write we are dealing with these institutional crimes before our National Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse. And this follows on from the Judicial Enquiry into Institutional Child Abuse in Ireland by Justice Ryan, brought down in 2009.

    So you might well like to consider what our criminal church has given us - tribal hatred and institutional child sexual abuse.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Wahhabism is a direct child of the enlightenment age (in the same way Fascism and Communism are), and I suppose our friend Victor should think more carefully about this paradox.
    You are right fascism and communism are linked to the enlightenment, but they are linked by reaction.

    So we might say fascism and communism are reactionary in the sense that they are reactions against evidence and reason, freedom and equality.

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