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  1. #51
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    ..And that's when babies enter the picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I agree so whole heatedly with your last sentence. Do 15 years have sexually developed bodies? Yes. Do they have sexual urges? Yes. But to me the question is whether are fully caps able of understanding and dealing with the consequences and responsibilities of sex. I don't think most are and I don't think it's repressive or barbaric to not want 15 year old engaging in full fledged sexual relationships.

    Sexuality is so central to our identities I don't see why it wouldn't be prudent to encourage people to wait to explore it until their worldviews (and brains) are more developed. People act like sex is a "need" and it's not. If you love someone much younger than you give them the chance to develop as a person before using them for sex. It seems so unloving to me that someone wouldn't take their partners age into consideration.

    To me it's so clearly abusive. 3 years might nt be alot for say a 24 year old and a 27 year old but it's huge for teens. I really see now excuse for the idea that the 18 year olds (male or female) are falling "victim" to these laws. The clear solution would be ..,,,don't. Have sex. With minors. Just don't do it.
    Yeah I took child development in college and the brain undergoes an intense rewiring during puberty and the pubescent brain really is different than the adult brain, they've found, and it starts to even out again somewhere around 18-19, right at or just after sexual maturity completes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    On a personal level I agree with you somewhat, but the law has to be pretty airtight and there's not a lot of room for treating people differently who meet the same objective criteria. How could that very subtle, subjective difference between a "young" 18 and an "old" 18 be written into law?
    I don't think it's all that subjective. I think it could be assessed by a psychologist.

  4. #54
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yeah I took child development in college and the brain undergoes an intense rewiring during puberty and the pubescent brain really is different than the adult brain, they've found, and it starts to even out again somewhere around 18-19, right at or just after sexual maturity completes.
    Yes, the adolescent brain is way different from the adult brain, and things start to even out in the late teens- but just to throw another monkey wrench into things- I think the most up to date info indicates that the brain isn't fully developed until somewhere around 25. Which seems nuts to me. I had a 2 year old when I was 25.

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    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I don't think it's all that subjective. I think it could be assessed by a psychologist.
    Really though, I don't want how 'mature' and 'sane' I am to be left up to a psychologist. I've met some really wonderful ones that have helped a lot of people.. but there are a lot of bad ones out there, and especially in smaller towns I could see that quickly becoming a problem.

    However.. I can see there being consideration for a younger teen testifying for their partner to a judge. Even if the parents do not consent, with the parents being removed from the room, the teenager could give testimony that their parents do not really know them and that they really did want to engage in sex. If the younger teen isn't really willing to do that.. I don't know if the older teen should be allowing them to consent to them in the first place.
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  6. #56
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yes, the adolescent brain is way different from the adult brain, and things start to even out in the late teens- but just to throw another monkey wrench into things- I think the most up to date info indicates that the brain isn't fully developed until somewhere around 25. Which seems nuts to me. I had a 2 year old when I was 25.
    Could you have handled it as well at 15 or 16? Because if you're having sex, you may have to.






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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Really though, I don't want how 'mature' and 'sane' I am to be left up to a psychologist. I've met some really wonderful ones that have helped a lot of people.. but there are a lot of bad ones out there, and especially in smaller towns I could see that quickly becoming a problem.

    However.. I can see there being consideration for a younger teen testifying for their partner to a judge. Even if the parents do not consent, with the parents being removed from the room, the teenager could give testimony that their parents do not really know them and that they really did want to engage in sex. If the younger teen isn't really willing to do that.. I don't know if the older teen should be allowing them to consent to them in the first place.
    So you'd rather it be arbitrarily left up to a small town judge instead?

    I do like your idea about the teen testifying without their parent present in the room. I think at like 12 or so you can decide which parent you want to live with, so I don't know why at around 15 or 16 you couldn't testify in a court that you consented to sex.

    But then again that's why I would love for psychologists to be involved. I remember when I was about 20-21 I was involved with a guy who was 19-20, and one of his gf's before me was a 16-17 year old with bipolar disorder. This girl would go to college parties and run away from home and would try to make out with other girls (including me, that's why I know), I mean she was something else, and I could see her saying that, sure, she consented to ...whatever.

    But that doesn't make it right. I actually had a stern conversation with that young man about his involvement with that girl, and he said "well she's a family friend." He was an ISFJ, so of course he felt guilty and ashamed, and made excuses about her being a family friend, and even tried to socially distance himself from her in words when he spoke about her to me, if you know what I mean by that. Like "oh yeah I want nothing to do with that, she's troubled, you know." Othering her, that kind of thing.

    Of course I was pretty young myself at the time but I was old enough to be freaked out that this girl who was only 3-4 years younger than me was doing all these things, and I felt it was wrong and destructive, especially knowing she had bipolar disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digest View Post
    Could you have handled it as well at 15 or 16? Because if you're having sex, you may have to.






    (The Royal "You're/You")
    Yeah I think even an 18-19 year old can handle a baby better than a 15-16 year old.

    So the 25 yo thing...I'm not sure what that's about, I think it's just when full body cell replication slows down, which is why so many people die of drug overdoses when they're 27. It isn't black magic, it's biology.

    I guess I can say that something solidifies around 25, though. Like your sense maybe of your identity of "who you are" and who you will continue to be for x number of years, barring head injuries, amnesia, or developing multiple personalities.

    I dunno.

    I also use the royal "you" a lot, and people think I mean them. No matter how many times I was taught as an English major that using "you" in formal writing is improper, it only seems right and makes a better impact when you do it conversationally, or in a blog.

  9. #59
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digest View Post
    Could you have handled it as well at 15 or 16? Because if you're having sex, you may have to.
    And that's the thing for me. If I've got a kid I've got to remind to do their laundry Sunday night because otherwise they won't have clean clothes for school the next day and who can't remember they need stuff for a school project until the night before. It's hard for me to think they are going to remember to use a condom or to stop to use one every single time. I've been that age. I'm not so old that I've forgotten.

    I can get my daughters a shot or a patch or implant or whatever, so I could make sure they are as protected from unplanned pregnancy as current technology allows. I can buy my kids a case of condoms at Sam's and tell them to take what they need. I can't make them use the condoms. So that leaves all my kids open to STDs and my sons at risk for parenthood. Obviously, if they are determined to have sex, they are going to.

    But having someone a few years older, with more status, experience and access to people their own age, go fishing in the kiddie pool for my kid . . . that would piss me off.

    Herpes, is, as they say, forever. And I want grandchildren as much as the next person, but if my grandkid's parents are teenagers, the odds of them having a rough life are pretty high. I could alternatively end up raising said grandchild or, worse, not having access to the grandchild at all, if the mother's family doesn't want me involved.

    These are not rare things that happen like winning the lottery or being struck by lightning. One of my daughter's friends had triplets this year.

    IOW, they screw with my kid, I'm the one picking up the pieces if something doesn't go just right, because I'm still their parent and love them and even if I did not, I'm legally and financially responsible for them.
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  10. #60
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And that's the thing for me. If I've got a kid I've got to remind to do their laundry Sunday night because otherwise they won't have clean clothes for school the next day and who can't remember they need stuff for a school project until the night before. It's hard for me to think they are going to remember to use a condom or to stop to use one every single time. I've been that age. I'm not so old that I've forgotten.

    I can get my daughters a shot or a patch or implant or whatever, so I could make sure they are as protected from unplanned pregnancy as current technology allows. I can buy my kids a case of condoms at Sam's and tell them to take what they need. I can't make them use the condoms. So that leaves all my kids open to STDs and my sons at risk for parenthood. Obviously, if they are determined to have sex, they are going to.

    But having someone a few years older, with more status, experience and access to people their own age, go fishing in the kiddie pool for my kid . . . that would piss me off.

    Herpes, is, as they say, forever. And I want grandchildren as much as the next person, but if my grandkid's parents are teenagers, the odds of them having a rough life are pretty high. I could alternatively end up raising said grandchild or, worse, not having access to the grandchild at all, if the mother's family doesn't want me involved.

    These are not rare things that happen like winning the lottery or being struck by lightning. One of my daughter's friends had triplets this year.

    IOW, they screw with my kid, I'm the one picking up the pieces if something doesn't go just right, because I'm still their parent and love them and even if I did not, I'm legally and financially responsible for them.
    You said a lot, and I agree with it. In addition to all of that, to me, being emotionally aware of the feeling of being in love does not equate to being mature enough to handle all that comes with sex. You get dumped after one date or a year-long relationship after holding hands, you get over it much easier than the same happening after you had sex because sex IS a big deal.

    I don't care if "everyone is doing it." History has proven that doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

    Many of these arguments may not mean to, but they come off as sounding like the same arguments some 18-20 year old would use to get the younger teen in the sack. The law may be black and white, and it may be abused, but that makes it exactly like a lot of other laws that came into being for a necessary reason. If Susie and Billy/Billatina are as in love as they claim to be, and as mature as they think they are, then they should be able to weather the storm.
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