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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It is one of those lovely things they just don't tell you when you enlist--like how you could technically be charged for getting a sun burn via damage to government property, or how everything but missionary sex is illegal.
    O_O

  2. #42
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @kyuuei
    there is a difference between focusing on sex too much (speaking as someone who does lol) and just letting it happen. if two people have feelings for each other and practice safe sex, why not? if there is any kind of coercion, then yeah, I'm definitely against that, but if they both enjoyed it and they're only 3 years apart, more power to them.
    personally, I would have been a lot happier in my teens if I had been sexually active

    It is one of those lovely things they just don't tell you when you enlist--like how you could technically be charged for getting a sun burn via damage to government property, or how everything but missionary sex is illegal.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    At the same time I tend to agree with Elfboy too, to an extent- although I am definitely not okay with 15/18 sexual relationships I also don't know that it should get the same punishment as a much older person with that 15 year old and/or robbing a gas station. But kids definitely need to be aware of how the law affects their relationships and what can happen to them if the other person's parents are against it.
    Well Elfboy seems like a young 21 though. I think he's still 21, is he 22? I mean he's extremely intelligent, but honestly sexually and in terms of "getting someone in trouble" he seems like a guy who would be okay to date younger boys/men still in their late teens.

    The 19 year old I was with casually for a year definitely did not belong with high school girls. Have you ever read The Virgin Suicides, or watched the movie? This guy is Trip Fontaine. Your daughter would be Lux Lisbon.

    Some 18 or 19 year olds are older than others, in terms of sexuality and/or life experience and/or bravery in doing "adult" things. Some 18 or 19 year olds still look physically very young and are mentally naive.

    You would have never told me three years ago I would have had a FWB who was 19. No sir.

    I honestly think it needs to be determined on a case by case basis, and I do think some parents overreact.

    But in other cases no. I think parents who let their 15 year old daughter date a 28 year old man probably belong in a mental institution.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    Haven't read all of the thread, but the 18 year mark is bullshit. Biologically, a child becomes an adult/sexually mature at puberty. Emotional and mental maturity varies from person to person. An 18 year old can date an emotionally retarded 18 year old with the intellect of a toddler, but can't date a 15 year old who may be wise beyond her years? Certainly, these types of cases shouldn't carry such heavy consequences. Teenagers having consensual sex is not rape or predatory.
    I don't know if the mark is "bullshit." Studies show that young men are now completely sexually mature at 18, while in 1800 it wasn't until 21-22. There's biological basis for it. And girls are usually sexually mature at 16 or 17. Mentally? Depends on the person, and like I mentioned in my last post, one person might be more intellectually mature, but another will be more sexually mature or have more life experience, and still another will be more responsible. Depends on personality type and the individual I think.

    I definitely think the penalty for an 18 year old with someone three years younger should be much lighter than for a 25 year old with a 16 year old.

    Even if there's a penalty, it should be more of a slap on the wrist, unless the younger person is much younger, like say an 18 year old with a 13 year old is completely unacceptable in nearly every way.

    People aren't fully sexually mature right at puberty. I don't know who told you that nonsense, unless you follow ancient Jewish law.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I didn't read the article. was anyone taken advantage of? if so, that changes my opinion, but an 18 year old having sex with a 15 year old is a perfectly natural age gap.

    yes, there are mental differences between 15 and 18 but....you're point. 18 year olds and 15 year olds have been having sex for thousands of years without much problems. chemistry is chemistry. two people don't need to be mentally the same to have sex (hell, this is tame. 25+ year old guys marrying 15-17 year old girls was the norm up until maybe 100 years ago). yes, in any relationship, there is potential for abuse and manipulation, but that doesn't mean it's always there.
    What?! So just because there is a historical precedent that means its fine? People also had sex with slaves and children int he past does than mean that doing it in modern times isn't exploitative. Yes older men were paired with girls in their young teens but those girls were basically chattel. In a lot of those cases the idea of consent didn't even factor into it. It wasn't about chemistry.

    Chemistry is not excuse for taking advantage of someone. Should we let people claim they have chemistry with 11 year olds, the severely mental handicapped? I really don't think so.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post

    Not to say that this girl should just be a complete cold-hearted I-just-protect-myself person.. but would it really have been such a big deal to sit down with the parents of the other girl and discuss things when she turned 18? *Many* parents do not want their 15 year old engaging in sex of any kinds, homo or hetero. Even if she didn't see an attitude shift at all... Maybe the parents consented at first, but when she turned 18 there should have been a consideration to ask them again about the topic. Adult things like sex sort of need more adult-like protocols.

    I find most of the time, communication never occurs, and it makes things into a bigger deal than it needs to be.



    Completely agreed on that.



    I would take it a step further and say that if you started the relationship while you both were in high school that you ought to be protected until the relationship ends.. but again, I think the parents of the minor have 100% of the control. There are NO protection measures in place for the young adults, and that's sad. The only protection they really have currently is when judges are nice to them.
    I think this is very smart.


    But year-gap laws don't write well. It's really hard to determine things like that and time lines get gray and fuzzy. It's a bit more practical to have a cut-off age-of-consent area, even if it is inconvenient for a couple of years for some couples.
    True.



    I definitely agree that the parents of the 15 year old were not at all clear with their intentions for their daughter and went about things in a highly unprofessional manner.
    A lot of parents are downright delusional about their teenaged children, not seeing who they really are. They see a person who five years ago was still a "baby." Some parents can't accept who their teenaged or even young adult child actually is. My ESFJ friend once said to me that her daughter who is about my age was "young for her age." I'm like...uh...no. In some ways I think her daughter was more mature than me, and maybe I just seem mature in a different way. We're both 30-ish, fully grown adults, not even teenagers, and this is how this woman described her daughter.

    Some people have a false image of their adult or teenaged children as being younger, more incompetent, or more innocent than they really are. I seriously think in this case the parents overreacted and were completely irrational.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Habit of mine, unintended to be a counter argument.



    It is one of those lovely things they just don't tell you when you enlist--like how you could technically be charged for getting a sun burn via damage to government property, or how everything but missionary sex is illegal. They aren't well known, or well enforced (though I'd argue the marry-or-break-up one is more enforced than many other, perfectly legitimate, laws) but they exist.

    Right now, it's a big controversy because we have a zero-tolerance policy on drinking and sex in the army. If you drink, at all, you are NOT able to give consent. So, a bunch of army dudes out drinking, joking, smoking.. some girl wants a quick lawsuit? Just sleep with an army dude while he's drunk, and then the next day say he raped you because you couldn't give consent. There is literally almost nothing he can do because our policy is "Don't drink if you want to have sex."



    And this really is what the media is telling us--there is another side where the picture is painted to make this girl seem like she's preying on the 15 year old, otherwise she wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. But, in my experience, a lot of people who want to press charges on other people, go crazy and assume the motivations of others.. if they had bothered to have enough bravery to just say to the person directly what they think and feel, that many situations would be diffused.

    I think there really ought to be at least something in the laws that states that the parents of the children have to at least communicate with each other before charges can be filed. At least give the parents of the young adult an outlet of some sort--some kind of safety net to help fix things and protect their own children. Because, as it states right now, if a 15 year old white girl was dating/having relations with an 18 year old black male, that girl's parents could be total bigots and get away with ruining that kid's life solely on the fact that they think it is immoral for a white and black person to date. There is no discretion.

    The laws are there to protect undeveloped children (proven by science--the brain doesn't develop entirely until mid 20s) from all kinds of situations... but there is no laws defending young adults (which suffer from the same impulsive habits and mentalities) from anger, wrath, hate, etc. There is no where where the 15 year old girl can say, "Look, I consented. I know I technically can't, but I did." It simply doesn't matter.



    There definitely is, and that is why age of consent is there in the first place. There is a difference, almost anyone would agree with that in a practical sense, and science is tending to back it. But there is a gray area in our society where children (and I am calling them children) are having sex, both sides before the age of consent. It's like this math equation--two negatives make a positive. The fact that religion is taken out of the equation so there is less stigma about morally being against sex is adding to it too, though to a lesser extent. So we're starting to see these really awful gray lines where kids start out with sex, then have to revert back to "I have to wait until my friends are all my age" and it really isn't working out well.



    I wouldn't say without much problems at all. I would say quite the opposite--we see with more education, higher health levels, and living in social situations where one doesn't have to worry about survival are putting young marriages and pregnancies WAY further into the timeline than those who are poorer and do struggle. The data is suggesting that just because they're doing it does not mean it should be done.. lacking abuse or not.

    And really.. who knew *exactly* who they were at the age of 15 or 18? Most people are just really getting a feel for themselves and what they want out of life.. there are people well into their 20s who still don't have these answers. Is sex really what people ought to be focusing on at those ages?


    I agree so whole heatedly with your last sentence. Do 15 years have sexually developed bodies? Yes. Do they have sexual urges? Yes. But to me the question is whether are fully caps able of understanding and dealing with the consequences and responsibilities of sex. I don't think most are and I don't think it's repressive or barbaric to not want 15 year old engaging in full fledged sexual relationships.

    Sexuality is so central to our identities I don't see why it wouldn't be prudent to encourage people to wait to explore it until their worldviews (and brains) are more developed. People act like sex is a "need" and it's not. If you love someone much younger than you give them the chance to develop as a person before using them for sex. It seems so unloving to me that someone wouldn't take their partners age into consideration.

    To me it's so clearly abusive. 3 years might nt be alot for say a 24 year old and a 27 year old but it's huge for teens. I really see now excuse for the idea that the 18 year olds (male or female) are falling "victim" to these laws. The clear solution would be ..,,,don't. Have sex. With minors. Just don't do it.

  8. #48
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Well Elfboy seems like a young 21 though. I think he's still 21, is he 22? I mean he's extremely intelligent, but honestly sexually and in terms of "getting someone in trouble" he seems like a guy who would be okay to date younger boys/men still in their late teens.

    The 19 year old I was with casually for a year definitely did not belong with high school girls. Have you ever read The Virgin Suicides, or watched the movie? This guy is Trip Fontaine. Your daughter would be Lux Lisbon.

    Some 18 or 19 year olds are older than others, in terms of sexuality and/or life experience and/or bravery in doing "adult" things. Some 18 or 19 year olds still look physically very young and are mentally naive.

    You would have never told me three years ago I would have had a FWB who was 19. No sir.

    I honestly think it needs to be determined on a case by case basis, and I do think some parents overreact.

    But in other cases no. I think parents who let their 15 year old daughter date a 28 year old man probably belong in a mental institution.
    On a personal level I agree with you somewhat, but the law has to be pretty airtight and there's not a lot of room for treating people differently who meet the same objective criteria. How could that very subtle, subjective difference between a "young" 18 and an "old" 18 be written into law?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    (hell, this is tame. 25+ year old guys marrying 15-17 year old girls was the norm up until maybe 100 years ago). yes, in any relationship, there is potential for abuse and manipulation, but that doesn't mean it's always there.
    Okay I want to address this. This was a function of the patriarchy, and it's C-R-A-Z-Y when you realize that a lot of girls didn't even start their periods until 14-17 100 years ago. Girls starting their periods at 12-13 became more common in the 20th century with better nutrition and so forth, and the freakishly young onset of menstruation that has occurred recently is probably due to hormones in food, which is just creepy and disgusting and the real, significant underlying reason "organic" has become such a big deal. It's not just about pesticides, or yuppies being pretentious.

    So here you have a very tiny girl who just started her period, marrying a man who admittedly probably wasn't sexually mature himself until about 20 or 21, but who has more education and life experience than that young girl will EVER have. Emphasis on "girl." Not woman.

    You take a girl right when she starts bleeding, you basically are taking a naive person who is easily brain-washable and controllable into your "stable." It's not a coincidence that a lot of street pimps specialize in underage teen prostitution.

    It's also why people often believed that women didn't like sex. Of course they didn't like sex with some older dude their parents forced them to marry for money. Am I saying that 15 year old girls aren't EVER attracted to men over 25? No.

    But the reality was that many of these men were actually 30, 35, 40, sometimes even older, and a 15 year old girl back then was probably much more responsible in terms of work and chores than they are today (no distractions and lots of discipline from parents) but in other ways, in terms of education, life experience, and even the age they started menstruating, 15 was younger than it is now.

    There's really not a strong scientific basis for that social construct, though I do agree that teens who are in the same age range/peer group will psychologically be subjected to what is probably mostly bullshit if a relationship is forced to change because of a birthday.

  10. #50
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    It's not about 18 and 15. The law doesn't differentiate. It is simply an adult (18+) and a 15 year old.

    Is it stupid - for this case and others like it? Yes. But the law doesn't allow for subjectivity. Hopefully a judge or jury will remain reasonable when faced with the facts.
    Precisely my point. There is no need to get panties all in a wad just because it is a girl falling victim to these black-and-white laws. That is just the case. Even murder has different levels--negligent manslaughter, manslaughter, degrees... yet it seems when minors are involved at all it is 100% sex offender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I agree so whole heatedly with your last sentence. Do 15 years have sexually developed bodies? Yes. Do they have sexual urges? Yes. But to me the question is whether are fully caps able of understanding and dealing with the consequences and responsibilities of sex. I don't think most are and I don't think it's repressive or barbaric to not want 15 year old engaging in full fledged sexual relationships.

    Sexuality is so central to our identities I don't see why it wouldn't be prudent to encourage people to wait to explore it until their worldviews (and brains) are more developed. People act like sex is a "need" and it's not. If you love someone much younger than you give them the chance to develop as a person before using them for sex. It seems so unloving to me that someone wouldn't take their partners age into consideration.

    To me it's so clearly abusive. 3 years might nt be alot for say a 24 year old and a 27 year old but it's huge for teens. I really see now excuse for the idea that the 18 year olds (male or female) are falling "victim" to these laws. The clear solution would be ..,,,don't. Have sex. With minors. Just don't do it.
    This is about how I feel on the matter.. but it isn't so black and white. It is difficult to teach a teenager that sex is actually a good and healthy thing so we aren't repressing their sexuality, while teaching them that they cannot and should not engage in it until they are ready. Teenagers feel ready for anything. And some of them are. But most just think they are.
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