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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Switzerland is going to be an exception because they have a lot of guns, but a low intentional homicide rate, but I think more of their people have formal training and they have less inequality. And, this is totally a guess, they might have fewer handguns.
    You know, its misinterpreted a lot and I think it may lend itself to it too, but Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine was about this, the question of why do massacres happen in the US when other gun owning nations dont experience the same thing.

    It wasnt about gun control or ammunition control per se, I know it sort of gets side tracked towards the finish and stuff and I dont know if Moore really new how to finish it.

    If the country doesnt like or wont accept limits on the access and availability of firearms its got to do something about the motivation to misuse them and I dont know how that's done, that's the big question right there.

  2. #52
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You know, its misinterpreted a lot and I think it may lend itself to it too, but Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine was about this, the question of why do massacres happen in the US when other gun owning nations dont experience the same thing.

    It wasnt about gun control or ammunition control per se, I know it sort of gets side tracked towards the finish and stuff and I dont know if Moore really new how to finish it.

    If the country doesnt like or wont accept limits on the access and availability of firearms its got to do something about the motivation to misuse them and I dont know how that's done, that's the big question right there.
    I think it has something to do with idolizing the cowboy culture and teachers not addressing the problem of bullying. There is way too much bully worship in the U.S.
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  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    I would claim that you should be removing "guns" from that first sentence. The issue at hand is whether or not you have intent to do harm, and the availability of a method of doing so. Guns are simply the tool, nothing more. Removing guns from the equation reduces gun crime, sure, but the intent to cause crime goes nowhere, and those who are able to get their hands on guns suddenly find themselves with a significant advantage.

    There is a culture problem, a crime problem, and simply attacking guns is a lazy and ignorant fix which will just transform the problem and lead to other methods being restricted. The problem still exists with guns (mostly) removed from the picture. Australia and the UK have taught us that.
    You really think that without guns there'd be an equal level of violent crime? I doubt it, also its not as easy to do as much damage in as short a space of time with any other sort of weapon as with fire arms.

    You're right that if you are not going to control access and availability of firearms then you need to address the motivation to misuse them, that's the two points I highlighted.

    Wait, did you just call me lazy and ignorant?

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think it has something to do with idolizing the cowboy culture and teachers not addressing the problem of bullying. There is way too much bully worship in the U.S.
    Might makes right is a problem the world over.

  5. #55
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    If the country doesnt like or wont accept limits on the access and availability of firearms its got to do something about the motivation to misuse them and I dont know how that's done, that's the big question right there.
    As a society, we value action and "doing" over contemplation, long-term planning, and reflection. Look at the average Hollywood hero. The obstructive bureaucrats thinking about the long term things are always, if not secretly in league with the bad guys, making things more difficult for the hero. (Except for that one guy with the longstanding relationship with the hero that always goes "sure he's a crazy impulsive jackass, but he GETS RESULTS.") People that value acting for the sake of acting, that is, acting without reflecting, are more likely to impulsively shot someone.

    (Obviously, this doesn't account for the splashy pre-planned mass murders that make the big headlines. But I'm under the impression that those are a minority of gun crimes. )
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  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    As a society, we value action and "doing" over contemplation, long-term planning, and reflection. Look at the average Hollywood hero. The obstructive bureaucrats thinking about the long term things are always, if not in league with the bad guys, certainly more of a liability than an asset. People that value acting for the sake of acting, that is, acting without reflecting, are more likely to impulsively shot someone.

    (Obviously, this doesn't account for the splashy pre-planned mass murders that make the big headlines. But I'm under the impression that those are a minority of gun crimes. )
    True, I would figure.

    I would say that what you're describing is a big part of the problem, the human doing versus the human being is an old problem too and not restricted to the US.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So you don't find it a little strange that the US has twice, if not quadruple the murder ratet of other developed countries? What do you think causes Americans to kill each other so much more than people in other countries?
    Of course I find it strange. However, we're discussing what effect gun control would have on the murder rate. If you're trying to say that guns cause the strange murder rate, I'll have to disagree. I believe them a symptom, not a cause. If that's not what you're saying, you'll need to elaborate.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You really think that without guns there'd be an equal level of violent crime? I doubt it, also its not as easy to do as much damage in as short a space of time with any other sort of weapon as with fire arms.

    You're right that if you are not going to control access and availability of firearms then you need to address the motivation to misuse them, that's the two points I highlighted.

    Wait, did you just call me lazy and ignorant?
    I do believe that violent crime is just as bad without guns, albeit in different forms.

    No, I called gun control legislation lazy and ignorant. If gun control legislation is close enough to you that you consider an insult to it an insult to you then there are other far more interesting things we should be discussing.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Of course I find it strange. However, we're discussing what effect gun control would have on the murder rate. If you're trying to say that guns cause the strange murder rate, I'll have to disagree. I believe them a symptom, not a cause. If that's not what you're saying, you'll need to elaborate.
    Gun control, in and of itself wouldn't make too much of a difference, the way it would likely be enforced here. A gun buy-back program (a year of Medicaid per gun turned in, perhaps) along with more thorough background checks and perhaps continued education in gun safety, and accountability for securing your firearms properly might be helpful.

    What do you think our high murder rate is a symptom of?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    I do believe that violent crime is just as bad without guns, albeit in different forms.

    No, I called gun control legislation lazy and ignorant. If gun control legislation is close enough to you that you consider an insult to it an insult to you then there are other far more interesting things we should be discussing.
    Its hard to have a discussion when people choose not to respond to your posts and if you're going to conduct yourself in this way then you will discover that for yourself real soon.

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