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  1. #41
    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    What if everybody had a car or a knife? Business does not protect itself from criminals; society places taxes on themselves to hire people following emplaced laws to capture and prosecute the people who break those laws. Their was a report awhile back stating that 20,000 people in California had weapons who were not allowed to own weapons. What are they doing about it - nothing, $8 buck an hour people do not put themselves in that type of risk (to attempt the removal of a gun from someone not committing a violent crime) and the tax base is unable to afford more. So far, California has not self-destructed into a blood bath yet.

  2. #42
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winds of Thor View Post
    One of the safest places to be is around responsible, armed people.
    This deserves highlighting for two reasons. First, "responsible" is a key here. Most gun owners fall under this category, yet the irresponsible ones get all of the attention, casting a bad shadow over the majority. Also, you really need to experience a friendly armed situation firsthand; you really can't explain it. When I go to gun shows, I don't feel the least bit insecure or nervous even though there are people walking around with spas-12s and AK clones on their backs. Frequently, the people at such events are far more cordial than the average person you encounter as well.

    I don't know why people seem to think that when there are many guns in a concentrated area there is automatically going to be chaos...
    ...

  3. #43
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy22 View Post
    What if everybody had a car or a knife? Business does not protect itself from criminals; society places taxes on themselves to hire people following emplaced laws to capture and prosecute the people who break those laws. Their was a report awhile back stating that 20,000 people in California had weapons who were not allowed to own weapons. What are they doing about it - nothing, $8 buck an hour people do not put themselves in that type of risk (to attempt the removal of a gun from someone not committing a violent crime) and the tax base is unable to afford more. So far, California has not self-destructed into a blood bath yet.
    ...But central America has, and thats because gangs in third world countries obtain their arms from the military forces of first world countries. Its the arms traffic thats a huge problem in the world. Legally controlling all existing firearms would lessen the chances of such degenarate traffics that worsen things.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    I don't know why people seem to think that when there are many guns in a concentrated area there is automatically going to be chaos...
    Two variables are always constant in gun crime, the motivation to use guns, the availability of guns/access to guns.

    There may not be anything that can be done about the first variable, there is something which can be done about the second.

    Gun control which aims at restricting access to or the availability of guns in the community is not simply about and not even primarily about restricting the access of responsible and lawful gun ownership but about reducing the number of weapons which are in circulation should unlawful individuals wish to access them.

    One of the reasons that the UK regular police officers are not routinely armed with firearms is in order to off set the chance of criminals stealing their weapons for their own criminal purposes.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    ...But central America has, and thats because gangs in third world countries obtain their arms from the military forces of first world countries.
    The film Lord of War is very interesting as an expose of the international arms trade, which is way worse humanitarian disaster wise than arms dealing and possession in the first world urban centres.

    I thought it was a great film in a lot of ways but in addition to it exposing arms trading its a good portrayal of the deterioration of that Randian uber mensch style of amoral character.

  6. #46
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Two variables are always constant in gun crime, the motivation to use guns, the availability of guns/access to guns.

    There may not be anything that can be done about the first variable, there is something which can be done about the second.

    Gun control which aims at restricting access to or the availability of guns in the community is not simply about and not even primarily about restricting the access of responsible and lawful gun ownership but about reducing the number of weapons which are in circulation should unlawful individuals wish to access them.

    One of the reasons that the UK regular police officers are not routinely armed with firearms is in order to off set the chance of criminals stealing their weapons for their own criminal purposes.
    I would claim that you should be removing "guns" from that first sentence. The issue at hand is whether or not you have intent to do harm, and the availability of a method of doing so. Guns are simply the tool, nothing more. Removing guns from the equation reduces gun crime, sure, but the intent to cause crime goes nowhere, and those who are able to get their hands on guns suddenly find themselves with a significant advantage.

    There is a culture problem, a crime problem, and simply attacking guns is a lazy and ignorant fix which will just transform the problem and lead to other methods being restricted. The problem still exists with guns (mostly) removed from the picture. Australia and the UK have taught us that.
    ...

  7. #47
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    In the US we have the notion that if people do not have guns, they will just find some other way to kill people. That is probably true to a point, but perhaps less true than we think.

    Here is a list of 20 countries ranked by GDP per capita, highest to lowest. The numbers in red are intentional homicide per 100,000. Green numbers represent each county's GINI coefficient, the higher the number the greater the inequality. (Some of the GINI numbers are a bit out of date, but not more than ten years.)

    *Norway 0.955 () 0.06 25.0
    *Australia 0.938 () 1.0 30.3
    *United States 0.937 ( 1) 4.8 45.0
    *Netherlands 0.921 ( 1) 1.1 30.9
    *Germany 0.920 ( 4) 0.8 27.0
    *New Zealand 0.919 ( 1) 0.9 36.2
    *Ireland 0.916 () 1.2 33.9
    *Sweden 0.916 ( 3) 1.0 23.0
    *Switzerland 0.913 ( 2) 0.7 29.6
    *Japan 0.912 ( 2) 0.4 37.6
    *Canada 0.911 ( 5) 1.6 32.1
    *South Korea 0.909 ( 3) 2.6 31.0
    *Hong Kong 0.906 () 0.2 53.7
    *Iceland 0.906 () 0.3 28.0
    *Denmark 0.901 ( 1) 0.9 24.8
    *Israel 0.900 ( 1) 2.1 39.2
    *Belgium 0.897 ( 1) 1.7 28.0
    *Austria 0.895 ( 1) 0.6 26.3
    *Singapore 0.895 ( 7) 0.3 47.8
    *France 0.893 () 1.1 32.7


    The US has both high rates of homicide and a high rate of inequality. However, not every country with high inequality has a high homicide rate. Singapore and Hong Kong have high rates of inequality, but low rates of homicide.

    Obviously correlation does not equal causation, but well, we do have a lot more guns than a lot of other countries and we also have a lot more homicide, so it would appear Americans are unusually bloodthirsty for a rich country or maybe folks in other countries don't kill people as much as they might if they had guns handy.

    Switzerland is going to be an exception because they have a lot of guns, but a low intentional homicide rate, but I think more of their people have formal training and they have less inequality. And, this is totally a guess, they might have fewer handguns.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #48
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    In the US we have the notion that if people do not have guns, they will just find some other way to kill people. That is probably true to a point, but perhaps less true than we think.

    Here is a list of 20 countries ranked by GDP per capita, highest to lowest. The numbers in red are intentional homicide per 100,000. Green numbers represent each county's GINI coefficient, the higher the number the greater the inequality. (Some of the GINI numbers are a bit out of date, but not more than ten years.)

    *Norway 0.955 () 0.06 25.0
    *Australia 0.938 () 1.0 30.3
    *United States 0.937 ( 1) 4.8 45.0
    *Netherlands 0.921 ( 1) 1.1 30.9
    *Germany 0.920 ( 4) 0.8 27.0
    *New Zealand 0.919 ( 1) 0.9 36.2
    *Ireland 0.916 () 1.2 33.9
    *Sweden 0.916 ( 3) 1.0 23.0
    *Switzerland 0.913 ( 2) 0.7 29.6
    *Japan 0.912 ( 2) 0.4 37.6
    *Canada 0.911 ( 5) 1.6 32.1
    *South Korea 0.909 ( 3) 2.6 31.0
    *Hong Kong 0.906 () 0.2 53.7
    *Iceland 0.906 () 0.3 28.0
    *Denmark 0.901 ( 1) 0.9 24.8
    *Israel 0.900 ( 1) 2.1 39.2
    *Belgium 0.897 ( 1) 1.7 28.0
    *Austria 0.895 ( 1) 0.6 26.3
    *Singapore 0.895 ( 7) 0.3 47.8
    *France 0.893 () 1.1 32.7


    The US has both high rates of homicide and a high rate of inequality. However, not every country with high inequality has a high homicide rate. Singapore and Hong Kong have high rates of inequality, but low rates of homicide.

    Obviously correlation does not equal causation, but well, we do have a lot more guns than a lot of other countries and we also have a lot more homicide, so it would appear Americans are unusually bloodthirsty for a rich country or maybe folks in other countries don't kill people as much as they might if they had guns handy.

    Switzerland is going to be an exception because they have a lot of guns, but a low intentional homicide rate, but I think more of their people have formal training and they have less inequality. And, this is totally a guess, they might have fewer handguns.
    An interesting way of looking at things, but I'd debate how accurately it shows anything comparatively. If you want to explore the idea of "will they just find another way to kill people" I'd say look at a country's murder rate before and after implementing gun control. That way you don't even have to deal with things like inequality and culture differences. (Please excuse any mistakes; I'm on my phone right now)
    ...

  9. #49
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    It is a lot easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife. If there's no difference in the amount of skill required, why don't more people hunt game with knives? Knives are way cheaper than guns.

    Some people hunt with bows, too, but bows are difficult to use and take a lot of practice. That's why you don't hear about many murders associate with bows, even though they're probably easier to acquire.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  10. #50
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    An interesting way of looking at things, but I'd debate how accurately it shows anything comparatively. If you want to explore the idea of "will they just find another way to kill people" I'd say look at a country's murder rate before and after implementing gun control. That way you don't even have to deal with things like inequality and culture differences. (Please excuse any mistakes; I'm on my phone right now)
    So you don't find it a little strange that the US has twice, if not quadruple the murder ratet of other developed countries? What do you think causes Americans to kill each other so much more than people in other countries?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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