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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Yes, but most gun cotrol debates center around the value of human life, which is a bigger priority than property value.
    And those debates are ridiculous. The emotionally driven use of false absolutes, like when someone in the debate throws in the usual.. "I think my right to walk down the street safely, trumps your right to own a gun" just floors me every time. As if the two were mutually exclusive. It's pure stupidity, and ignorance, plain and simple.

  2. #22
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anti-villain View Post
    And those debates are ridiculous. The emotionally driven use of false absolutes, like when someone in the debate throws in the usual.. "I think my right to walk down the street safely, trumps your right to own a gun" just floors me every time. As if the two were mutually exclusive. It's pure stupidity, and ignorance, plain and simple.
    Yes, and no. There are emotionally driven types but there are sensible arguements as well.

  3. #23
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    Such as...?

  4. #24
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Well for instance the arguement that prohibiting gun ownership would increase the chances of criminals owning a gun and noncriminals having less of a possibility to defend themselves against said criminals.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Yes, but most gun cotrol debates center around the value of human life, which is a bigger priority than property value.
    You'd think so, to everyone though?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Well for instance the arguement that prohibiting gun ownership would increase the chances of criminals owning a gun and noncriminals having less of a possibility to defend themselves against said criminals.
    Just to clarify, you believe the above statement to be true or false?

  7. #27
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    So, I think there are multiple problems with this whole "armed society = polite society" argument. First, I think it mostly arises from a romanticized view of Western Culture (sometimes via way of Robert Heinlein).

    Secondly, there are charts like this one:



    Which fail to show much of a "gun deaths go down when gun ownership goes up" effect. It seems mostly (with the exception of Mexico) to show a not-unsurprising correlation of gun ownership to gun deaths. I suppose if one squinted, one might draw a flattening curve by considering only Canada, Switzerland and the US... but seems like more data points we be needed to establish that effect. Granted, also, the U.S. case is skewer by fewer people tending to own guns over time, but those individuals tending to own more funs.

    So, what about a correlation (positive or negative) between rape and gun ownership? A quick google search yields (noting that rape statistics tend to be difficult, given problems with under-reporting, etc):
    Country Rapes Hand gun
    United States 26.4 29%
    West Germany 11.3 6.5%
    Canada 8.4 4%
    Australia 6.3 2%
    England & Wales 2.6 0.5%

    The correlation in this (admittedly small) sample of countries would appear to go the other way.
    Other have argued that increased gun ownership increases violent behavior and violent deaths. Still, the data on that seems murky at best (with some of the violence priming effects of weapons going down with familiarity).

    (Compare some of the above to correlations between poverty/income-inequality and violence, where there is a far clearer relationship.)

  8. #28
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    bad idea for everyone to own one... I'd have shot several people by now if that was an option... and it would probably end up with a standoff with the police in which I then shot myself

    I prefer my knife, as I'm too lazy to chase anyone down to stab them

    some of us have the same attitudes towards guns as towards credit cards- if we have them we might abuse them, so best off left unowned
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #29
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think pretty much anyone in the US that wants a gun has one. They're super easy to get. I just had a kid try to give me two guns in colateral for a used car I own that he wants to buy. He paid $20 for the shotgun. I know nothing about guns, but that seemed pretty cheap.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #30
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    I agree. It's not as simple as "an armed society is a polite society". This is a far more complex issue.

    The studies like the ones shown above are often heavily flawed though. They almost always lump suicide by firearm into 'gun deaths' completely skewing the results. Suicide is suicide. If someone resorted to the finality of using a gun to kill themselves, it wasn't a cry for help, they would have most likely used some other method if a gun had not been available. They also don't take into account the presence of firearms licensing systems which include education, testing, references, and criminal background checks. Nor do they take into account cultural differences, which is an incredibly complex issue in and of itself. What about mental illness? The vast majority of mass shootings in the USA and Canada were committed by those suffering from some very serious social and psychological disorders. Why don't we take a look at the incidence of stabbings while we're at it to see how well behaved people are without guns? Or just violent crime in general. And so on, and so forth, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

    Reducing this issue to a couple graphs, using the crudest of parameters, is saying "this is the bare minimum effort we are willing to put into tackling this problem". It's a hunt for a scapegoat and easy answers. It's also spitting in the face of those who have lost loved ones due to gun violence, who are depending on the powers that be to start taking these issues seriously, by addressing them at their root.

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