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  1. #51
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think the is just another bad result of people conflating race and culture. I skimmed the article and it seems to be more about how Black people are affected by other's perception of their racial identity. That makes sense with the history of prejudice in the country that black people would be more aware of racial identity (as "the other") than white people who are seen as the norm. However I disagree that your race is what give you a sense of purpose. Since race and cultural are not actually linked (a greek raised by american will be have american culture) it doesn't really follow that Katie will be culturally confused. She doesn't have an innate sense of "white culture". (Again we're assuming white and black cultural are some how significantly different)


    I feel like it will be very easy for Katie see she's white and understand that being adopted means you aren't actually their biological child. I don't really see where that would be confusing.
    No, but that's not the question. Also, which article are you talking about? I posted two of them. The second one may be conflating race and culture, but only because that's what people do. So that makes it an observation about how people equate or associate race and culture. If Italians would stop making Italian food, or doing other things that distinguish themselves as a culture, maybe people would stop conflating the two. But then that involves sacrificing an entire way of life.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #52
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Definitely it's racist, although Baltimore's a weird city. The article only identifies an "affluent" suburb, and there's a heavy black inner city population down here. I think I've made mention before of my black friend dressed better than me being shunned at the Nordstrom's shoe department down in Columbia while the black clerks were chasing after me even though I was avoiding eye contact and wasn't interested in buying anything.

    IOW, it's not just that people are black, it's also factored with fear of lower-income, higher-crime area blacks -- Baltimore's got some pretty crime-infested areas, populated by black people, and that image I think resonates. When that white transgirl got the shit stomped out of her in McDonald's last year, it was by two black girls in a lower-income part of town. I think that fear is pervasive. If people can't tell the difference, they start making assumptions or feeling uneasy. And it's not just white people being afraid of black people, I sometimes have felt uneasy because I've seen people look at me (depending on where I go) when I'm the only white girl in the place and I would get the vibe that they didn't want me there.

    I wonder what suburb they are in.And while I'm all for integration, I'm wondering whether black folks will be hard on Katie because she'll be the "white intruder" when she's older. But it might not be the case, as right now they're saying she is being shunned by white peers and plays with the black girls. And she will no doubt pick up behaviors and dialect more from that subculture, so she might actually fit in just fine despite the color of her skin.
    But even if people are afraid of low income, high crime area blacks the application of these ideas to all place people is still just predjudice based on skin color.

    For instance your friend though dressed nicely was shunned. A black male coworker came into my job on his day off in a very normal suburban outfit plain(t-shirt, jeans with a belt and a ball cap). A white woman i worked with said he looked like a thug and how intimidated she'd been. She'd worked with him for months and our other white co-worker wears similar outfits very regularly and she's never commented. Basically because he is black she feels it's more justified to connect him to poverty and crime.

    Is it just as common for people to think well dress white people are criminals? I don't think it is. With white people we use things like their clothes and behaviors as indicators with their race being almost a neutral. There are plenty of violent and poor white people but generally they aren't seen as cause enough to fear all white people. Whereas examples of black poverty and crime seem to relate back to all black people.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    No, but that's not the question. Also, which article are you talking about? I posted two of them. The second one may be conflating race and culture, but only because that's what people do. So that makes it an observation about how people equate or associate race and culture. If Italians would stop making Italian food, or doing other things that distinguish themselves as a culture, maybe people would stop conflating the two. But then that involves sacrificing an entire way of life.
    Italian isn't a race. If you define race based on cultural groups then yes of course they are conflated.

    If you define race in the typical or just accept that race is a construct then the connection to cultural then you don't have to destroy culture to see it's separateness from race.

  4. #54
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I've never been one to think that cultural identity is an inherent good that must be preserved. And race is different from culture, and what you're talking about is preserving culture. I couldn't actually care less if so-called black culture disappeared, or Norwegian culture for that matter. National and ethnic pride are not things I'm concerned with. In fact, I think the world would be a better place without them.

    As for this being about race, it's very important not so mix that together with culture. A so-called black person can be raised to not have any of that culture, even by black parents. A white person could be raised with what we think of as black culture. Confusing this issue can lead to using culture as excuse to discriminate based on race.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Italian isn't a race.
    True, but Italian is associated with a culture.
    "It is common knowledge that Italians, Greeks, Russians, Germans, French, Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, Spaniards, to name a few, have identifiable cultures that are linked to their social and racial identity and that this identity is embraced, welcomed, and accepted throughout the Western world."
    http://www.racismreview.com/blog/201...-under-attack/

    That's from an article that explicitly supports CNN against Fox news: "When racist media, such as Fox News, use black intellectual mercenaries to pander to white audiences to denounce a cultural practice or particular behavior in African Americans in general..."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #56
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    Yes but it's an ethnic group, and people who don't believe in race often say that prejudice against ethnic groups is racism.

    Slavic isn't a race, either, it's considered a sub-race of Caucasian, but most people would call prejudice against Slavs a form of racism.

    The people who say that prejudice against Italians or Muslims is "racism" I think are really stretching it; I tend to think there's a difference between race and culture. You can be an Arabic atheist.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    True, but Italian is associated with a culture.
    "It is common knowledge that Italians, Greeks, Russians, Germans, French, Swedes, Finns, Norwegians, Spaniards, to name a few, have identifiable cultures that are linked to their social and racial identity and that this identity is embraced, welcomed, and accepted throughout the Western world."
    http://www.racismreview.com/blog/201...-under-attack/

    That's from an article that explicitly supports CNN against Fox news: "When racist media, such as Fox News, use black intellectual mercenaries to pander to white audiences to denounce a cultural practice or particular behavior in African Americans in general..."

    So italian is culture and not race. That seems really obvious to me.


    I'm not going to argue in favor of a random article from the internet. It's not the "Black manifesto" and I've already said I think it's making a false connection between race and culture.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yes but it's an ethnic group, and people who don't believe in race often say that prejudice against ethnic groups is racism.

    Slavic isn't a race, either, it's considered a sub-race of Caucasian, but most people would call prejudice against Slavs a form of racism.

    The people who say that prejudice against Italians or Muslims is "racism" I think are really stretching it; I tend to think there's a difference between race and culture. You can be an Arabic atheist.

    True we could just call it all prejudice, xenophobia, ethnocentrism ect.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think the is just another bad result of people conflating race and culture. I skimmed the article and it seems to be more about how Black people are affected by other's perception of their racial identity. That makes sense with the history of prejudice in the country that black people would be more aware of racial identity (as "the other") than white people who are seen as the norm. However I disagree that your race is what give you a sense of purpose. Since race and cultural are not actually linked (a greek raised by american will be have american culture) it doesn't really follow that Katie will be culturally confused. She doesn't have an innate sense of "white culture". (Again we're assuming white and black cultural are some how significantly different)


    I feel like it will be very easy for Katie see she's white and understand that being adopted means you aren't actually their biological child. I don't really see where that would be confusing.
    Some people say race and culture are the same thing. Those people drive me insane.

  10. #60
    Epiphany
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    This thread has veered onto a more interesting subject and one that is an underlying issue of many alleged cases of "racism." The fact that one's decision to embrace a particular culture, set of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors is a choice and judging someone based on that choice is not a form of racism, in itself.

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