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  1. #131
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    I think the people who constantly reinforce those lines are creating unnecessary conflict, especially when race becomes analogous to culture and any grievance against a particular culture is then attributed to racism. It's circular.
    I agree to a certain point, but with a caveat. It's not merely strong lines between groups that create the tension. You can have clearly demarcated groups while maintaining cooperation, but that's on people to rise above their competitive instincts/in group bias when it really counts. However, the problem is intensified by drawing group boundaries that don't make sense. I agree with what you're saying about race = culture.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #132
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    Though Phyllis doesn't seem concerned about preserving the child's culture (whatever that means), I'm curious what culture she fears is threatened by white couples adopting black children. African culture? Specifically, what customs, beliefs and behaviors are she referring to? And are they worth preserving at the cost of possibly depriving a child of a healthy family?

    Society is constantly changing, and along with that so are the cultures that exist within it. Cultures should change, as well. Case in point, slavery and segregation were both acceptable practices in the US before the culture evolved and eradicated them.
    I'm not remotely an expert on Black culture or any aspect of it. I can't even really claim to have black friends, though my kids have black and biracial friends that I like and the woman who is my oldest friend has biracial kids that I love.

    My exposure is pretty limited. But there are some differences in what you could loosely and broadly call black culture. My observation is likely far from accurate and my interpretation is no doubt suspect but, one thing I've noticed in my area, is that black people acknowledge each other. Like, when I was riding the city bus, if the driver was black, they were always waving at people, usually black people. White drivers almost never waved at anyone and the racial mix in my town is, at most 20% black. Another thing I've noticed is that black guys often show physical affection when greeting one another. Most white guys in my area don't do that. Like, at most, white guys shake hands. I'm also under the impression that church holds a place in Black culture that it doesn't hold among Whites, except maybe in the south. And I think they have a thing for respecting elders that I haven't observed in the same way among whites I know. These are all arguable good or neutral things and some would consider the loss of these things to be negative.

    Are American Blacks the only ones with these customs? No. Do all American Blacks practice these customs? No. But if I am correct, they are still customs distinctive to the group. A child raised outside the group might fail to absorb these customs and pass them on.

    I don't think it's worth preserving these customs at the cost of depriving a child of a healthy family. I do, however, think it is highly desirable to address the disadvantages black Americans face so that there are fewer black children in the system and more black families in a position to foster and adopt children who need their care. I think we all benefit from that and I don't think that there is anything wrong with preserving Black culture.

    Edit: There really isn't any need to preserve White culture. It's the dominant culture and manages pretty well for itself. A child in the US would pretty much have to be Amish to not be exposed to it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's a thorny problem because there likely aren't enough black foster and adoptive families for the black kids in the system. The number of black kids in the system is probably reflective of the social ills and systemic prejudices black people face.
    exactly what i am not getting here: i get the concept of wanting to keep the cultural/racial link intact, i can even see how an adopted child that looks like the family can spare some sociological consequences. but given that it's not exactly a widespread option, how does keeping the child without a home serve to do so?

  4. #134
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    exactly what i am not getting here: i get the concept of wanting to keep the cultural/racial link intact, i can even see how an adopted child that looks like the family can spare some sociological consequences. but given that it's not exactly a widespread option, how does keeping the child without a home serve to do so?
    I have no idea and I never advocated any such thing.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #135
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    Yes, she's a hypocrite. But she's more like the grandmother who has primary custody during the week. Her daughter and son-in-law are being regarded as the parents and may or may not hold the double-standard that Phyllis does. Perhaps, they are more level-headed.
    If she's cared for, and they let her know it, I firmly believe she'll be fine. Much ado about nothing. The only worry, if I could even call it that, passing concern, maybe, I had was that if she did have a problem, it would most likely stem from them and their underlying negative thoughts/feelings being picked up by her. But, it could very well end up changing her views (the adult woman). It happens. The heart does crazy things to the mind.
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  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Here was one of the source articles of the quotes posted above:

    Children born of rape come of age in Bosnia
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/incom...rticle1096015/





    First off, take a moment to be thankful you're not in Bosnia.

    Ok, then, to relate this to the United States, certainly we don't have such laws in place, but you could argue that there are (still) existing social stigmas in place against mixed race/unclear race groups.
    That's different, but I do understand the point you're getting out.

    I was actually thinking though more about adopted Russian children in the U.S., how some of them are completely out of control or abused, and how that one woman sent that 8 year old back to Russia alone with a note pinned to his shirt, after trying to give him a new Americanized name.

    I seriously wanted to take that woman out and beat her, and I think children adopted as older children who have issues because of being abused or neglected, or being products of rape during war or something...you can't also put them into culture shock, I mean if you want to adopt a child from a Russian orphanage or a Bosnian rape orphan, I would sincerely hope you're educated about and sympathetic to that culture.

    I don't know, I need to read more, what is the case with this child? Did the couple adopt her as a baby? Or was she an older child adopted by a different ethnicity?

    Clearly though amongst fellow Americans, despite differences in ethnicity, the culture shock is still not as shocking because of being American as the predominant culture, unless the adoptive family lives in a cult or an alternative society like the Amish.

  7. #137
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    I think we have to ask the baby girl she prefer her parents looks like her or not.Unfortunately,she can not choose.

  8. #138
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    cafe can just speak for me in this regard. (And most other regards.)

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm not remotely an expert on Black culture or any aspect of it. I can't even really claim to have black friends, though my kids have black and biracial friends that I like and the woman who is my oldest friend has biracial kids that I love.

    My exposure is pretty limited. But there are some differences in what you could loosely and broadly call black culture. My observation is likely far from accurate and my interpretation is no doubt suspect but, one thing I've noticed in my area, is that black people acknowledge each other. Like, when I was riding the city bus, if the driver was black, they were always waving at people, usually black people. White drivers almost never waved at anyone and the racial mix in my town is, at most 20% black. Another thing I've noticed is that black guys often show physical affection when greeting one another. Most white guys in my area don't do that. Like, at most, white guys shake hands. I'm also under the impression that church holds a place in Black culture that it doesn't hold among Whites, except maybe in the south. And I think they have a thing for respecting elders that I haven't observed in the same way among whites I know. These are all arguable good or neutral things and some would consider the loss of these things to be negative.

    Are American Blacks the only ones with these customs? No. Do all American Blacks practice these customs? No. But if I am correct, they are still customs distinctive to the group. A child raised outside the group might fail to absorb these customs and pass them on.

    I don't think it's worth preserving these customs at the cost of depriving a child of a healthy family. I do, however, think it is highly desirable to address the disadvantages black Americans face so that there are fewer black children in the system and more black families in a position to foster and adopt children who need their care. I think we all benefit from that and I don't think that there is anything wrong with preserving Black culture.

    Edit: There really isn't any need to preserve White culture. It's the dominant culture and manages pretty well for itself. A child in the US would pretty much have to be Amish to not be exposed to it.
    I'm still not understanding what this white culture is. Unless it consists of anything that isn't being ascribed to black culture. (If it's not one, it must be the other)? I think it is dangerous to start labeling certain behaviors as racial characteristics for obvious reasons, which is why I have a problem with terms like Black Culture and White Culture. Much of what you said about blacks being friendlier to each other and going to church is also applicable to southern whites. There are many subcultures in the US that are predominantly white, but I think any white person who doesn't identify with a subculture would be offended, or at least confused, if someone associated them with it based on the color of their skin. Speaking of the Amish, why are you excluding them from white culture, since they are mostly white, as well? If anything, it goes to show that associating race with behaviors is a slippery slope and should be avoided.

  10. #140
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    There's not really a "White Culture," but white is the default in our culture. Things that are white are "regular," "normal," and non-white is the "other." In the grocery store you've got a "Hair Care" section and as "Ethnic Hair Care" section. The "Hair Care" section has products for people with normal (white) hair; the "Ethnic Hair Care" section is for the people with non-normal hair (people of color). This is just an example- it's pervasive and applies to things much more important than hair care. This stuff is invisible to most white people until it is pointed out (and even then, many deny it- I predict many here will).

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