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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Even if I wanted to wear a burqua why should the government be allowed to tell me I can't.
    It depends on the government.

    An Islamic government may allow you to wear a burqua, or even insist, while a democratic government may see the burqua as a flag for jihad.

  2. #12
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Ann Coulter was kind enough to let me know she's full of shit over a decade ago, when she spoke about invading Saudi Arabia and 'Christianizing' them. She's a professional troll, just like her buddy Bill Maher.

    Its also hugely hypocritical of her to promote the criminalization of free speech after being threatened with the same in Canada.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Ivy has good point. Around here, there are Pentecostal Christian women that must wear dresses or skirts and never pants. They aren't allowed to cut their hair, wear make-up, or wear jewelry. I see them nearly every time I go shopping.

    And we have Amish communities two counties over. They don't dress like most folks I know, the men have weird beards, and they often travel in horse-drawn buggies. Some of them sell stuff in my city's farmer's market and sometimes I see them when I'm shopping.

    Then you've got the Mennonite ladies that wear the little basket-looking things on their heads and the Hutterite women up north that wear black kerchiefs on their heads.

    My own dress is not as obvious, but I follow the standards of my faith as I see it when I choose what to wear. I've been known to ask my husband if he thinks my clothes are too revealing before wearing them in public. I'm doing the same thing any of those women are, it's just that my beliefs allow me to blend in better.

    I would sure hate to lose the right to dress according to my convictions and I wouldn't dream of taking those rights from anyone else, except maybe if they violated obscenity standards. Honestly, though, if it was a choice between seeing people running around naked (and you know it's almost never the people you'd want to see naked that want to do it) or refusing people the right to dress according to their conscience, I'd say bring on the nudies.

    I never had any problem with the lunch lady at my kids' elementary school wearing her hijab. I want my kids to be exposed to other cultures so they don't become xenophobes.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Isn't it my right as a woman to choose what I wear? If I want to wear a hijab as my choice why should the government be allowed to regulate that? It's sort of the opposite of gender rights, basically controlling women in order to make a political stance about controlling them.


    Even if I wanted to wear a burqua why should the government be allowed to tell me I can't.
    I meant burqa and niqab, which are costumes of the Taliban and Wahabis. Hijab can be very pretty and is no different really than a woman being an evangelical Christian.

    And yes, I think the government should be allowed to not tell you to wear the costume of the Taliban, both for reasons of extremist Islam and the sexist oppressive behavior that goes along with it.

    If you want to wear a burqa in the privacy of your own bedroom for kicks, that's another matter entirely.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    In the United states we have freedom of expression that I understand Australians don't explicitly have. Perhaps it makes sense to you to limit people in these ways, but I think for most americans to be controlled like this would be a violation of our rights stemming from our constitution. Unfortunately some people like Ann Coulter can seem to recognize that other people also legitimate americans and have the same rights as she does.

    I do not believe that people should be kept from expressing their thoughts even if they are distasteful. If I don't protect that right for others how can I expect anyone to respect my right to express beliefs? However in this case I don't think it's even that people are expressing their support for jihad, instead they becoming scapegoats for people who fear other cultures based on the actions of individuals.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Ann Coulter was kind enough to let me know she's full of shit over a decade ago, when she spoke about invading Saudi Arabia and 'Christianizing' them. She's a professional troll, just like her buddy Bill Maher.

    Its also hugely hypocritical of her to promote the criminalization of free speech after being threatened with the same in Canada.
    Oh yeah I loved that whole free speech thing with Ann Coulter, I remember that, she's a hoot and a holler really once you get past being offended that people might follow her or believe what she says.

    A lot of people list her as a 6w7 sx/so in enneagram (just like me) so she has some kind of enneagram push to be what she is.

    I actually relate pretty strongly to the template of how she expresses herself, just not what she expresses and how she chooses to express it, because I really do doubt her authenticity.

  7. #17
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    Explicit and Implicit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    In the United states we have freedom of expression that I understand Australians don't explicitly have.
    Your freedom is explicit, ours is implicit.

    Yours is explict because it is seen, is visual, and literate.

    While ours is implicit because it is heard and felt, is aural and tactile, and spoken.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I meant burqa and niqab, which are costumes of the Taliban and Wahabis. Hijab can be very pretty and is no different really than a woman being an evangelical Christian.

    And yes, I think the government should be allowed to not tell you to wear the costume of the Taliban, both for reasons of extremist Islam and the sexist oppressive behavior that goes along with it.

    If you want to wear a burqa in the privacy of your own bedroom for kicks, that's another matter entirely.

    Firstly, your incorrect about the burqua or niqab being a costume specific to the Taliban or whabis.

    Secondly, even if you were correct and the garments were specifically political, it's still not an legal action to ban people from wearing them. People are allowed to wear Klansman outfits or nazi costumes. Freedom of expression. The government has no right to control the expression of law abiding citizens and I don't see any good reason to give them that power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Firstly, your incorrect about the burqua or niqab being a costume specific to the Taliban or whabis.

    Secondly, even if you were correct and the garments were specifically political, it's still not an legal action to ban people from wearing them. People are allowed to wear Klansman outfits or nazi costumes. Freedom of expression. The government has no right to control the expression of law abiding citizens and I don't see any good reason to give them that power.
    But if you wore a klansman outfit or nazi outfit, people would follow you around or keep an eye on you, if it wasn't Halloween, and you would be laughed at by most people for complaining about it.

    I don't think I can compare this because of the specific time context in which we live.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    But if you wore a klansman outfit or nazi outfit, people would follow you around or keep an eye on you, if it wasn't Halloween, and you would be laughed at by most people for complaining about it.

    I don't think I can compare this because of the specific time context in which we live.


    It doesn't matter how people treat you (so long as not violently). There is a huge difference between your community disliking an action and government prohibiting that action.

    What about this time context makes the removal of 1st amendment rights from law abiding american citizens okay?

    Personally I don't see how it's different. As a mixed person I feel threatened by the political stances of Neo-nazis and Klansmen. Does that fear mean I should let the government dictate their self expression, provided it's non violent? No, because that only leaves room for people to limit my freedom.


    Finally, suppose one does think muslims are the enemy. Why would you want to have them assimilate and be undistinguishable from everyone else? It makes no sense. If they were hiding and being secretive a burqa isn't going to be the best option. And even if you force them to dress "american" that's doesn't prevent people from committing crimes. Basically it's just preventing people from being identifiably muslim to assuage the fears of people who associate all muslims with terrorism, while not actually improving national security.

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