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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli_ryan View Post
    I'm not a western liberal. I'm engaged to a North African man and a convert to Islam. I have personal contact with Moroccans and North Africans and am not trying to pick apart your arguments for the sake of a judgement. It's solely for the purpose of getting rid of some of the ignorance that surrounds these issues and their interpretations.

    Also-- Obviously it wouldn't be forbidden by law-- and if by "upper classes" you mean non-muslims who have controlled the territory of Morocco in the past, then yes... that would make since. But I'm absolutely positive that by muslims, the hijab would never be frowned upon, as it is an integral part of the main facet of islam--- which is prayer--- and required for female participation in it.
    Yes, you are a white woman from Texas.

    Nice to meet you. Hope you have a nice marriage. Read the link I posted above. To a Moroccan news board, containing an article by the BBC.

    If women have to cover their head to pray, that's nice, but they don't have to walk around in public wrapped up to pray with their head covered.

  2. #112
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli_ryan View Post
    Hijab is "discouraged"? ... No, I don't think so. Moroccans and other North African countries still have a lot of the female population wearing their hijab. I think it's clear that what this forum refers to is the wearing of hijab in ALL public settings versus the common use of it being worn only in very crowded, very male populated scenes... and also--- it is REQUIRED in Islam during prayer... so I'm absolutely positive it is never discouraged.
    It depends where. Yes, wearing an hijab is usually discouraged in University and when you're amongst friends (or course, the PJD wouldn't agree on that, but fuck propaganda!). As you said, most women I've seen wearing it either do it "in very crowded, very male populated scenes", or because they originate from poor, rural or illiterate families. But then again, it's a personal choice I've always respected without feeling offended.

    Nonetheless, in most cities (Casablanca, Marrakesh, Tangers, Rabat, or Agadir), the majority of female population is NOT wearing any headscarf, especially the younger (and prettier) ones.
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  3. #113
    Senior Member kyli_ryan's Avatar
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    So you read the article, but did you actually read what the Moroccan man SAID about it? You are right in saying things have moved toward political issues with the hijab, but that still doesn't mean that the religious rights should be infringed upon.

    Abdelkarim El Houichre from the Association of Teachers of Islamic Education does not trust the government's motives:

    "I think there is pressure coming from the United States, which believes that teaching about traditional Islam and teaching girls to wear headscarves will somehow encourage extremism and terrorism," he says.

    "But I think Islamic education has to be kept within mainstream teaching in our schools because that way we can control it. If we deny it to them in school then they will only go and find out more outside of school and they are more likely to fall into the wrong hands."
    You are talking about governmental bodies and decisions--- not the reality of the issue--- whenever you're placing judgement on these women and their choices.

  4. #114
    Senior Member kyli_ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Nonetheless, in most cities (Casablanca, Marrakesh, Tangers, Rabat, or Agadir), the majority of female population is NOT wearing any headscarf, especially the younger (and prettier) ones.
    Yes, in most larger cities, younger women are not wearing hijab-- until maybe they are married. In Istanbul, which I know is not exactly as "muslim" oriented as other places, this is the practice as well--- but still, the option of wearing it shouldn't be taken from them, just because it is seen as some kind of "symbol."

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli_ryan View Post
    So you read the article, but did you actually read what the Moroccan man SAID about it? You are right in saying things have moved toward political issues with the hijab, but that still doesn't mean that the religious rights should be infringed upon.



    You are talking about governmental bodies and decisions--- not the reality of the issue--- whenever you're placing judgement on these women and their choices.
    I never said you don't have a right to convert to be Muslim, and I'm just pointing out how interesting it is that a more peaceful country like Morocco has a more flexible attitude toward the hijab.

    Yes, I will place judgment upon it. I never said hijab should be banned in the U.S. or that women should be jailed even for wearing more oppressive symbols of Islamic extremism like the niquab or burqua.

    And making it illegal would just make more white Western liberal women convert to Islam out of sexy rebellion, so I don't see it as productive.

    However, I agree with Victor that it's nothing but a symbol, open to cultural interpretation, and since I'm American, I believe in the separation of church and state.

  6. #116
    Senior Member kyli_ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I never said you don't have a right to convert to be Muslim, and I'm just pointing out how interesting it is that a more peaceful country like Morocco has a more flexible attitude toward the hijab.

    Yes, I will place judgment upon it. I never said hijab should be banned in the U.S. or that women should be jailed even for wearing more oppressive symbols of Islamic extremism like the niquab or burqua.

    And making it illegal would just make more white Western liberal women convert to Islam out of sexy rebellion, so I don't see it as productive.

    However, I agree with Victor that it's nothing but a symbol, open to cultural interpretation, and since I'm American, I believe in the separation of church and state.
    In referring to "not placing judgement," i was referring to your personal attacks on MY being. Apparently you didn't catch that in your examination of the issue. Where you are taking the hijab to be SOLELY a "symbol," you are also referencing origin and politics as a motive for study and understanding of an issue that should maybe be looked at a little more objectively and not just as an "american" placing judgment on "western white liberals" who happen to have studied and learned a lot about the topic at hand. My political affiliation and color has nothing to do with it---

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli_ryan View Post
    But I'm absolutely positive that by muslims, the hijab would never be frowned upon, as it is an integral part of the main facet of islam--- which is prayer--- and required for female participation in it.
    Yes, you are right - the hijab represents Islam, jihad, and misogyny as well as the abuse of children.

    But worse, the hijab sybolises the Stockholm Syndrome where Islamic women take on the values of their oppressors.

  8. #118
    Senior Member kyli_ryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, you are right - the hijab represents Islam, jihad, and misogyny as well as the abuse of children.

    But worse, the hijab sybolises the Stockholm Syndrome where Islamic women take on the values of their oppressors.
    I just need to keep asking myself why I always feed the damn trolls.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli_ryan View Post
    In referring to "not placing judgement," i was referring to your personal attacks on MY being. Apparently you didn't catch that in your examination of the issue. Where you are taking the hijab to be SOLELY a "symbol," you are also referencing origin and politics as a motive for study and understanding of an issue that should maybe be looked at a little more objectively and not just as an "american" placing judgment on "western white liberals" who happen to have studied and learned a lot about the topic at hand. My political affiliation and color has nothing to do with it---
    On your being? Hey you aren't wearing a hijab in your pic with your cute North African fiance, so I'm guessing you aren't conforming to it, since men all over the world could potentially see your picture on the Internet. So I'm not attacking your being in the slightest.

    Also, I have some French friends who are ethnically Moroccan, they spent several months in L.A. a year or two ago, and none of these ladies wore hijabs, only one of them even chose to wear it for her daily prayers, but she took it off afterward.

    And she was actually my favorite of the bunch, very sweet lady, and smart enough to point out that culturally Islam is about where Christianity was 500 years ago.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyli_ryan View Post

    Also-- Obviously it wouldn't be forbidden by law-- and if by "upper classes" you mean non-muslims who have controlled the territory of Morocco in the past, then yes... that would make since. But I'm absolutely positive that by muslims, the hijab would never be frowned upon, as it is an integral part of the main facet of islam--- which is prayer--- and required for female participation in it.
    Obviously, you haven't lived very long in Morocco.

    Yes the upper classes socially frown the hijab: it is perceived as very "low class".
    Go into places where Fassis (the aristocratic bourgeoisie from Fes) meet, and observe. Tell me if you'll see just ONE hijab, unless you're refering to the discrete cleaning lady or the occasional female servant.
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