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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You want to find a universal truth? I'd suggest you start by eschewing spiritualism.
    And yet what you're talking about hasnt ever been a universal phenomenon rooted in human nature, whereas what I'm sure you'd describe as spiritualism is.

  2. #82
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And yet what you're talking about hasnt ever been a universal phenomenon rooted in human nature, whereas what I'm sure you'd describe as spiritualism is.
    What do you mean by that exactly? If you're simply speaking of common perception, I don't care. I suspect that even now only the minority of all humans that have ever lived have believed the earth to orbit the sun. That relatively modern minority, however, is the one that has know the truth, at so much as we can know any non-deductive conclusion to be true.

    I'd also be careful with the notion of human nature. First of all, the that fact that many people do something simply doesn't mean it is some how our nature. Secondly, something may be one possible product of our nature, without being the root nature itself.

    I think spiritualism, and mysticism, and all those related things, primarily exists to fill gaps. People don't like uncertainty. The uncertain amounts to chaos, and chaos makes people anxious. The need to subdue that anxiety compels people to seek answers, and they will settle for poor answers. That's where mysticism comes in. Mysticism is essentialy an answer to a question that a person can not, or will not, sufficiently investigate to produce a more probable answer. Mysticism is answers in the absence of investigation. People who need to be mystical are so discomforted by chaos that they place more value on answers than they do on the truth. At least, that's what I suspect.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    Well, in some ways.
    In other ways, no.
    true.

    we still have those tea party f*cks
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What do you mean by that exactly? If you're simply speaking of common perception, I don't care. I suspect that even now only the minority of all humans that have ever lived have believed the earth to orbit the sun. That relatively modern minority, however, is the one that has know the truth, at so much as we can know any non-deductive conclusion to be true.

    I'd also be careful with the notion of human nature. First of all, the that fact that many people do something simply doesn't mean it is some how our nature. Secondly, something may be one possible product of our nature, without being the root nature itself.

    I think spiritualism, and mysticism, and all those related things, primarily exists to fill gaps. People don't like uncertainty. The uncertain amounts to chaos, and chaos makes people anxious. The need to subdue that anxiety compels people to seek answers, and they will settle for poor answers. That's where mysticism comes in. Mysticism is essentialy an answer to a question that a person can not, or will not, sufficiently investigate to produce a more probable answer. Mysticism is answers in the absence of investigation. People who need to be mystical are so discomforted by chaos that they place more value on answers than they do on the truth. At least, that's what I suspect.
    Hmm, yes, I wouldnt for a moment suggest that correlation amounts to evidence that it is natural, there is such thing as the naturalistic fallacy for sure.

    However, the fact that is complex, has been mistakenly interpreted before now and needs to be applied with a certain wariness doesnt mean that there is no such thing as a human nature either, how much of it is product of innateness and how much of it is not is up for debate too but I think given that we're both posting on a typology website which recognises a number of trait personality theories there's got to be some common ground or acceptance of the idea itself.

    I accept that your idea of spiritualism or mysticism as a crutch is one explanation for the universally present impluses, although I wouldnt accept it as the only one or the only valid one either. It is valid and probably true in many instances. However, a craving for certainty is not a feature of my self, my own spirituality, nor for a great many of the worlds present and past masters in religious traditions or schools of thought, in fact, respectfully, it seems pretty reductive, although calculated to flatter the non-believer for their courage and admonish the believer for their cowardice.

    Paul Tillich wrote about exactly the dilemma you describe, at length, but its summed up well in his book The Courage To Be, he actually writes that religion and belief is no escape from uncertainty and anyone who suggests it is, whether they are a believer or not, is kidding themselves.

    Jung wrote about Luther, Ignatious Loyola etc. all experiencing something like it, the rule of Benedict upon which the Benedictine orders are founded posits something similar to it, in fact that it is something which can be expected to be experienced more than once and belief is no escape from it, a lot of other devout believers have written books on the topic too, Dark Night of The Soul, Cloud of Unknowing, Practicing The Presence of God etc. None of them with a view that it could be avoided.

    Jung's whole second half of life psychology and mid life crisis theorising etc. are all based upon the fact that crisis of certainty exist, are unavoidable and to be expected.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think atheism is a form of repressed spirituality.

    The new age is vexatious to me mainly because I find it facile and consumerism derived and driven, at least in publishing.
    New age spirituality is not consumerism driven; atheism could be repressed spirituality, it seems to be an over-emphasis on the literal, even denying one's own experiences in some cases.

  6. #86
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Believe me, they also meet "over there". For instance in Morocco or Tunisia, expatriate women living with local Muslim men is a commonplace phenomena. And vice-versa.

    Once again, it is very interesting to read all the prejudices people here have against those so-called "shitty" countries, and to compare it with my own experience.

    You know, I will tell you a secret: before being Muslims, before some of you fantasize them as a kind of post cold-war enemy (a replacement for the dreaded Russians), Muslims are... simple and ordinary men and women. They aren't demons, and the Muslim world is too diverse to make crude generalities about the way they treat women. With all respect, I think most of you should be more specific: for instance, the kind of Islam you see in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan wildly differs from the one you will encounter in northern Africa or Indonesia.

    In Morocco you know, it may be incredibly strange to tell you this, but most husbands seem to treat their wives very respectfully and very peacefully. It's nothing close to the "akin to cattle" description. Most Moroccans I know are "normal people", with "normal families" and "normal lives". Nothing extraordinary.

    I tend to think that religion is an equal issue everywhere, and that includes the Christian world which also used to be extremely misogynistic not so long ago. But then, what really makes the difference is the local culture and the local political history.
    Thank you, Blackmail! I have no objection to what you say.

  7. #87
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    All those sorts of hang ups, scriptural authority, consistency to a fault, inflexibility I consider measures of dead religions and the sorts of personality problems they bring out or attract are not restricted to religion by any stretch.
    The problems are not so much in the religions themselves (i.e. doctrine, writings, etc.) but in how people (mis)interpret and (ab)use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What do you mean by that exactly? If you're simply speaking of common perception, I don't care. I suspect that even now only the minority of all humans that have ever lived have believed the earth to orbit the sun. That relatively modern minority, however, is the one that has know the truth, at so much as we can know any non-deductive conclusion to be true.

    I'd also be careful with the notion of human nature. First of all, the that fact that many people do something simply doesn't mean it is some how our nature. Secondly, something may be one possible product of our nature, without being the root nature itself.

    I think spiritualism, and mysticism, and all those related things, primarily exists to fill gaps. People don't like uncertainty. The uncertain amounts to chaos, and chaos makes people anxious. The need to subdue that anxiety compels people to seek answers, and they will settle for poor answers. That's where mysticism comes in. Mysticism is essentialy an answer to a question that a person can not, or will not, sufficiently investigate to produce a more probable answer. Mysticism is answers in the absence of investigation. People who need to be mystical are so discomforted by chaos that they place more value on answers than they do on the truth. At least, that's what I suspect.
    While I generally agree with your line of reasoning, it is an oversimplification to write mysticism off as simply an attempt to explain the unknown. It has mental and emotional benefits separate from such attempts.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It has mental and emotional benefits separate from such attempts.
    More effective than a non-mystical alternative?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #89
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    More effective than a non-mystical alternative?
    For many people in many situations, yes. I don't believe in one-size-fits-all solutions.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #90
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    I've always liked Sufi Islam. I lived happily enough as a practicing but only very loosely-believing Catholic for years. I'm sure that I could live happily as a practicing but only very loosely-believing Muslim if I fell in love with someone in a place where professing a certain religion was necessary to obtain the social benefits of marriage. I mostly see religions as many different manifestations of the same spiritual impulse and there are some facets of Islam that I feel very in touch with.

    I understand the implications of women being regarded as lesser, but I see that more as a function of society and history than of religion itself. I think religious texts simply echo the zeitgeist during which they were written, and some people try to carry that into the present as part of being a wholehearted believer. In my opinion, the core of religion is far from gender concerns, but I understand why some people want to integrate that aspect of history. Even if I were to convert, I would always retain my current beliefs about the nature of religion, and that would include not submitting to belief that I am of a lesser strain of humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think spiritualism, and mysticism, and all those related things, primarily exists to fill gaps. People don't like uncertainty. The uncertain amounts to chaos, and chaos makes people anxious. The need to subdue that anxiety compels people to seek answers, and they will settle for poor answers. That's where mysticism comes in. Mysticism is essentialy an answer to a question that a person can not, or will not, sufficiently investigate to produce a more probable answer. Mysticism is answers in the absence of investigation. People who need to be mystical are so discomforted by chaos that they place more value on answers than they do on the truth. At least, that's what I suspect.
    I think mystic tradition and spiritualism may be less an answer and more an acknowledgement that we cannot and will not know everything in a "knowledge" sense. Mysticism generally places emphasis on subjective personal communion with the presence of divinity, which is very much removed from "answers" and intellectual knowledge and is more about personal feeling and experiential understanding. I think it is a different type of truth that mystics and spiritualists are seeking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumi, Sufi mystic
    Close both eyes
    to see with the other eye.

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