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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think that new age spirituality makes as much sense as atheism but I dont think that either make sense really.

    I do agree that comparative religion is useful in understanding what underlies all religions and religious experience, I believe with Jung and some athiest thinkers even that human beings have historically created religions or channelled experiences through existing religious traditions because there is a well spring within human nature that corresponds to it all.

    While I dont believe in everything he said, not by a long shot, but Victor Frankl wrote some good things about spiritual repession, that it could feature within peoples psyches the same was sexual repression, which is something that many atheists dont get and probably accounts for how similar some atheists are to their evangelical and proseltysing counterparts.
    But evangelism isn't spiritual. I really don't think that particular part of religion is spiritual in the slightest; to the contrary I think evangelism is based in ego, it's a form of persuading others to join in on xyz, whether that be political, religious, having sex, or robbing a bank.

    Impassioned evangelism seems to be a trait of certain types of people, but it isn't a feature of all religions, I don't consider evangelism a form of repressed spirituality.

    I separate spirituality from religion, though, which is something people who say they completely reject the new age will probably never understand.

    The new age literally means being able to stand outside of cultural religion and being able to see truth more universally or globally.

    I don't understand why that's so vexing for people.

    Probably because they visualize teenagers with KMart Ouija boards trying to cast revenge spells on their art teacher, instead of holistic spiritual practitioners who understand comparative religion and apply it to real life et al.

  2. #72
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Atheism islam makes much more sense than Religion christianity, so if someone who is religious an christian studies the world around islam even a little, its natural that they laugh at these nonsensical superstitions get converted.
    I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure I remember INTP as an atheist. He's probably just referring to the fact that Islam, being created by fewer people over a smaller period of time, has fewer internal inconsistencies than Christianity, and the relative few that exists are explained away with an explicit doctrine about newer passages of the Koran (in terms of origin, not placement) superseding older passages. I think that's actually a major weakness of modern Islam, as the intolerant/violent passages (taking place during Mohammed's warlord period) are disproportionately newer in origin. This stacks the deck in favor of more extreme religious interpretations (especially as far as religious freedom, freedom of speech, and equality under the law are concerned-hence the intellectual/theological appeal of various forms of Islamism).

  3. #73
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    You want to find a universal truth? I'd suggest you start by eschewing spiritualism.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #74
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    The Old Testament is a historical record, it is the real world. Things happened before white people in Europe wrote them down. Jews think they're the chosen people. Newsflash to soulless materialistic atheists everywhere.

    Intolerance has its roots in Judaism pretty firmly, as they believe they worship the one true God. You seem extraordinarily misinformed about religion. All intolerance stems from Christianity? I'm sure Jesus would be pretty surprised since he said that both Jews and Gentiles could worship God, and didn't recommend blowing anyone up to receive virgins in heaven.

    I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, these concepts of suicide missions and having sex with anonymous, objectified women in heaven don't exist in the Judeo-Christian faith. So you'll find it's part of the reason why Westerners find Islam so distasteful.
    The Book of Revelation has some rather bizarre concepts in it as well. No religion has a monopoly on crazy imagery; the difference lies usually in whether one takes it literally, even normatively, or as a metaphor for some lesson or insight. The OT is a highly skewed and subjective historical record. History is written by the victor, which already introduces some bias, but much of the OT content was written specificially to persuade, motivate, or inspire rather than to document objectively. Still, your (and Blackmail's) take on tolerance in early Judaism as depicted in the OT is absolutely correct. The claims about having the one true god and being the chosen people translated into injunctions not to associate with other groups. Intermarriage outside the tribe was often blamed for corruption of Jewish faithfulness to God. This is loosely related to use of the image of a harlot to characterize the Jews when they had "strayed from the path".

    As for Jesus, he seems to have been a very tolerant, inclusive, and overall compassionate fellow. Unfortunately, those who later packaged and promoted his message were not nearly so, and manipulated the hell out of it to serve their own purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    At least regular governments tend to follow rules, there are systems in place, terrorists are just jackasses who murder civilians, and leave people wondering why.
    So it's OK to kill civilians, as long as you do it with the permission of a government, in accordance with its rules and procedures? I doubt the dead civilians appreciate the distinction.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #75
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If you wish to play that game:



    Atheism islam makes much more sense than Religion christianity, so if someone who is religious an christian studies the world around islam even a little, its natural that they laugh at these nonsensical superstitions get converted.
    Atheism claims that there is no god or higher force, this is just as much religious idea as theist ideas are. You see both claims are based on personal beliefs about the world and neither one can be proven right.

    Also this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually new age spirituality makes just as much sense as atheism, and when you study varying world religions, if you can see the underlying concept that connects them all, it's very enlightening.

    It's not about the mythology. It's about the profound ideas that are underlying it.

    And yes I think it does take "comparative religion" to understand it fully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Ideally, nobody should care about the fact I'm a soulless atheist, that INTP is a staunch Muslim, that Wildcat is a Jesus groupie and so on. It can only lead us to pointless debates.
    Im not a muslim lol, its just that if someone feels the need to believe in god as defined in judaism, christianity, islam etc(they all share the same god in case you didnt know), islam makes more sense than christianity does.

    What comes to my beliefs, i dont have belief about existence of god since it would be stupid to believe that it does exist or that it doesent exist since there is no proofs about it. But what makes most sense to me(and which i see the most probable) is that god is just defined wrong way because the definition is so old that its based on outdated world view. But thats where islam comes in, their definition isnt set in stone but basically just claim that what caused big bang is the god and that the thing that caused it is conscious and all knowing force which made the world intentionally as it is. How can you argue against that? Also there are quite huge things in many religious texts which seem really odd for people at the time to know. But who knows maybe its the



    There are many religious texts which support this hypothesis aswell. But the bottom line is that i dont know, you dont know and mohammed doesent know.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    But evangelism isn't spiritual. I really don't think that particular part of religion is spiritual in the slightest; to the contrary I think evangelism is based in ego, it's a form of persuading others to join in on xyz, whether that be political, religious, having sex, or robbing a bank.

    Impassioned evangelism seems to be a trait of certain types of people, but it isn't a feature of all religions, I don't consider evangelism a form of repressed spirituality.

    I separate spirituality from religion, though, which is something people who say they completely reject the new age will probably never understand.

    The new age literally means being able to stand outside of cultural religion and being able to see truth more universally or globally.

    I don't understand why that's so vexing for people.

    Probably because they visualize teenagers with KMart Ouija boards trying to cast revenge spells on their art teacher, instead of holistic spiritual practitioners who understand comparative religion and apply it to real life et al.
    I think atheism is a form of repressed spirituality.

    The new age is vexatious to me mainly because I find it facile and consumerism derived and driven, at least in publishing.

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure I remember INTP as an atheist. He's probably just referring to the fact that Islam, being created by fewer people over a smaller period of time, has fewer internal inconsistencies than Christianity, and the relative few that exists are explained away with an explicit doctrine about newer passages of the Koran (in terms of origin, not placement) superseding older passages. I think that's actually a major weakness of modern Islam, as the intolerant/violent passages (taking place during Mohammed's warlord period) are disproportionately newer in origin. This stacks the deck in favor of more extreme religious interpretations (especially as far as religious freedom, freedom of speech, and equality under the law are concerned-hence the intellectual/theological appeal of various forms of Islamism).
    The consistency thing I have found is just a much greater issue in seriously scripturalist schools of religious traditions or thinking such as Islam. It is similar to some schools of protestant thought, in the RCC tradition I've known people who were that way about canon law. I knew one guy who on any particular topic of discussion would simply open to a particular page and pass it over and say that is why or that is why it cant change or that is why its not worth discussing and was very, very proud of that variety of dogmatism. I really didnt like the guy and think strongly there were underlying personality issues at play, he used to say that he had less problems with Islamic jihadists than he did with secularists, he was also eventually drawn into support of fascism, which in some ways didnt surprise me.

    All those sorts of hang ups, scriptural authority, consistency to a fault, inflexibility I consider measures of dead religions and the sorts of personality problems they bring out or attract are not restricted to religion by any stretch.

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure I remember INTP as an atheist. He's probably just referring to the fact that Islam, being created by fewer people over a smaller period of time, has fewer internal inconsistencies than Christianity, and the relative few that exists are explained away with an explicit doctrine about newer passages of the Koran (in terms of origin, not placement) superseding older passages. I think that's actually a major weakness of modern Islam, as the intolerant/violent passages (taking place during Mohammed's warlord period) are disproportionately newer in origin. This stacks the deck in favor of more extreme religious interpretations (especially as far as religious freedom, freedom of speech, and equality under the law are concerned-hence the intellectual/theological appeal of various forms of Islamism).
    The consistency thing I have found is just a much greater issue in seriously scripturalist schools of religious traditions or thinking such as Islam. It is similar to some schools of protestant thought, in the RCC tradition I've known people who were that way about canon law. I knew one guy who on any particular topic of discussion would simply open to a particular page and pass it over and say that is why or that is why it cant change or that is why its not worth discussing and was very, very proud of that variety of dogmatism. I really didnt like the guy and think strongly there were underlying personality issues at play, he used to say that he had less problems with Islamic jihadists than he did with secularists, he was also eventually drawn into support of fascism, which in some ways didnt surprise me.

    All those sorts of hang ups, scriptural authority, consistency to a fault, inflexibility I consider measures of dead religions and the sorts of personality problems they bring out or attract are not restricted to religion by any stretch.

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You want to find a universal truth? I'd suggest you start by eschewing spiritualism.
    And yet what you're talking about hasnt ever been a universal phenomenon rooted in human nature, whereas what I'm sure you'd describe as spiritualism is.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You want to find a universal truth? I'd suggest you start by eschewing spiritualism.
    And yet what you're talking about hasnt ever been a universal phenomenon rooted in human nature, whereas what I'm sure you'd describe as spiritualism is.

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