User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 93

  1. #61
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    ...im talking about living in america or somewhere where a country has its bull shit religion in check.


    Well, in some ways.
    In other ways, no.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #62
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,659

    Default

    Some thoughts and observations

    1) I imagine that if I married a Christian woman (a high probability living in the deep south as I do) then I imagine at some point in time I would adopt a very liberal interpretation of Christianity. This would be partially because I'd want to grow closer to her and partially I imagine it would be a natural consequence of being around her, seeing how her faith benefits her, and it naturally rubbing off on me.

    2) I've known and worked with a few Muslims, 2 men and 1 woman, in my career. One of the guys was a little more 'fundy' than the other and tended more conservative views of the Koran but his conservatism toward toward his religion was no less than the conservatism I've seen Catholics or Baptisits observe.

    The other man, and the woman, were both very liberal Muslims. She actually tends bar and dresses provocatively in order to attract more customers (which works, as she's really hot). Her Muslim husband doesn't seem to mind this near as I can tell.

    As such, I've come to the conclusion that Muslims are no more or less dedicated to their religion, at least here in the states, than many of the Christians I run into.

    3) Being an ISFJ isn't so bad. Once you've mastered The Secret Handshake(tm) you get a free recipe book
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  3. #63
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I don't care about the Old Testament, I care about what really happened in the real world. I'm a soulless, materialistic Atheist, remember?
    The Old Testament is a historical record, it is the real world. Things happened before white people in Europe wrote them down. Jews think they're the chosen people. Newsflash to soulless materialistic atheists everywhere.

    You're right on one point: Muslims borrowed the concept of intolerance from early Christian theologists and tried to refine the concept in their own way (hence the "dhimma contract"). Somehow, intolerance is probably linked to every Abrahamic religion but only Christians and later Muslims had the political strength to test it in a systematic manner and on an extensive territory.
    Intolerance has its roots in Judaism pretty firmly, as they believe they worship the one true God. You seem extraordinarily misinformed about religion. All intolerance stems from Christianity? I'm sure Jesus would be pretty surprised since he said that both Jews and Gentiles could worship God, and didn't recommend blowing anyone up to receive virgins in heaven.

    I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, these concepts of suicide missions and having sex with anonymous, objectified women in heaven don't exist in the Judeo-Christian faith. So you'll find it's part of the reason why Westerners find Islam so distasteful.


    Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that the first area of the Western world that passed tolerance edicts was Al-Andalus (temporary abolition of the Jizya tax). It was the first time in Europe that three religions could share a kind of similar political power in the same place. Unfortunately, this experiment didn't last very long and the Almoravid empire rule that succeeded was rather hostile to any non-Malekite point of view.
    Yeah, the Ottoman Empire was so tolerant, taxing the non-Muslims so they could live peacefully never holding power, in a kind of bizarre caste system, which eventually crumbled into shit, where children of Muslim fathers were forced to be Muslim and Christians were eventually persecuted.

    It was a beautiful thing.

    The Ottoman Empire's religious tolerance reminds me of early capitalists in the North being praised for not having slaves. It's like, oh, they're not holding slaves, but they're working people literally to death (on the line) in factories. Hmm.



    Well, let's say that the concept of "races" tend to be somewhat excessive especially in the US, at least from my own point of view. When I used to live in the US, it was scaring to notice the improper use of the word "race" everywhere, how the American society was still segregated and obsessed by this outdated concept.
    You've got a really imaginary world view, and I'd love to direct you pointedly toward the resurgence in European nationalism.

    I do not believe in human races because scientifically, there is no such thing with humans that could be remotely similar with what you can observe with dogs or plant taxa.
    And politically, many European countries do not feel the need to use that somewhat blurry concept, especially in everyday life. France is fortunately one of these countries, but most European citizens will share more or less the same point of view. With the policies on guns, the manic obsession about so-called human races is one of the greatest cultural divide between the two shores of the Atlantic ocean.
    Yeah, you know, those French people and their complete obliviousness to race. And their French nationalism.





    The dangerous Muslim civilians you refer to are first and foremost dangerous to their people first. The first victims of Jihadist terrorists are Muslim citizens -look at statistics-.

    Al Qaïdism is a Totalitarian movement, I didn't pretend otherwise. But it's no less dangerous than our own Totalitarianism: It's a global political disease. Between Neo-Nazis and Jihadists, frankly, I don't know where my preference goes...
    I prefer Neo-nazis. At least they have specific targets.







    Good. I hope you won't learn to hate Russians. I do not hate them either or else I wouldn't live with a Russian woman.

    But I think you will learn to be more realistic with your appreciations nonetheless.
    I think I'm more realistic than you are. You seem impassioned for the cause of Islam.



    You really think you're the center of the world, don't you?

    If you're a Muslim from central Asia, believe me, Russian "civilians" can quickly become excessively dangerous. So your notion of "dangerousness" is very relative.
    Then maybe people from Central Asia shouldn't go to Russia. Just a thought.

    I mean, I don't go plop myself down in the middle of Saudi Arabia in a bikini, do I?







    You know when you're dead, it makes absolutely no difference whether it was because of a Muslim madman crashing his plane on the WTC or a Spetsnaz automatic rifle's bullet. I would even dare to think that, as far as numbers are concerned, "regular" Governments tend to be far more effective at killing civilians than terrorists.
    It's a well-known vicious circle I've witnessed countless times in Israel. Violence feeds violence. Terrorist organizations feed on the violence of "regular" governments, and vice-versa. I don't have a clue how to stop it, but I'm not a naive pacifist either.
    At least regular governments tend to follow rules, there are systems in place, terrorists are just jackasses who murder civilians, and leave people wondering why.

  4. #64
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    I would not consider converting to religion for a partner. I could see being with someone religious, but it depends on how they handle their religion, and a devout one is certainly out of the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually new age spirituality makes just as much sense as atheism, and when you study varying world religions, if you can see the underlying concept that connects them all, it's very enlightening.

    It's not about the mythology. It's about the profound ideas that are underlying it.

    And yes I think it does take "comparative religion" to understand it fully.
    No. No.... No. A No for all the stars in the sky.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  5. #65
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I would not consider converting to religion for a partner. I could see being with someone religious, but it depends on how they handle their religion, and a devout one is certainly out of the question.



    No. No.... No. A No for all the stars in the sky.
    How about you just don't talk to me?

  6. #66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I would not consider converting to religion for a partner. I could see being with someone religious, but it depends on how they handle their religion, and a devout one is certainly out of the question.



    No. No.... No. A No for all the stars in the sky.
    I'm glad you posted because that's an illustration of honest atheism, I think its even less reconcilable with religious belief than religious beliefs of different traditions or denominations are with one another and I would say that some of those beliefs are pretty irreconcilable.

    Although I've known more females who were nominally atheist or athiests or secularists in fact than in thinking than I've known males who are.

  7. #67
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm glad you posted because that's an illustration of honest atheism, I think its even less reconcilable with religious belief than religious beliefs of different traditions or denominations are with one another and I would say that some of those beliefs are pretty irreconcilable.
    How can that be true when some Buddhists or Taoists are atheists?

    And underlying principles doesn't suggest an actual belief in a personal God.

    I honestly think it's a form of ignorance to ignore all Eastern thought.

  8. #68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually new age spirituality makes just as much sense as atheism, and when you study varying world religions, if you can see the underlying concept that connects them all, it's very enlightening.

    It's not about the mythology. It's about the profound ideas that are underlying it.

    And yes I think it does take "comparative religion" to understand it fully.
    I dont think that new age spirituality makes as much sense as atheism but I dont think that either make sense really.

    I do agree that comparative religion is useful in understanding what underlies all religions and religious experience, I believe with Jung and some athiest thinkers even that human beings have historically created religions or channelled experiences through existing religious traditions because there is a well spring within human nature that corresponds to it all.

    While I dont believe in everything he said, not by a long shot, but Victor Frankl wrote some good things about spiritual repession, that it could feature within peoples psyches the same was sexual repression, which is something that many atheists dont get and probably accounts for how similar some atheists are to their evangelical and proseltysing counterparts.

  9. #69
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    The Old Testament is a historical record, it is the real world. Things happened before white people in Europe wrote them down. Jews think they're the chosen people. Newsflash to soulless materialistic atheists everywhere.
    Can you allow me not to share your belief about the Old Testament?

    Perhaps I'm prejudiced, but I tend to think that religious books were never intented to be accurate historical sources. Perhaps I will rot in hell because of that, but at last I'm sincere and honest.



    Intolerance has its roots in Judaism pretty firmly, as they believe they worship the one true God.
    Probably.

    And again, I didn't say anything otherwise. But again, Jews never had an opportunity to express the concept of intolerance on the scale Christians and Muslims did.


    You seem extraordinarily misinformed about religion. All intolerance stems from Christianity? I'm sure Jesus would be pretty surprised since he said that both Jews and Gentiles could worship God, and didn't recommend blowing anyone up to receive virgins in heaven.
    I do not think Jesus existed at all. Sorry. Don't try to convert me and please, respect my (un)belief. I would not dare to try to convert you.


    I'm going to be perfectly honest with you, these concepts of suicide missions and having sex with anonymous, objectified women in heaven don't exist in the Judeo-Christian faith. So you'll find it's part of the reason why Westerners find Islam so distasteful.
    And you know, I'm so extraordinarily misinformed about religion that I have to remind you this: the concept of heaven and hell does not exist in Judaism. It was borrowed from Zoroastrism, and later exacerbated in Manichaeism.

    If I wanted to make a list about all the inane facts you find within the Christian faith, it would take me the whole day. Religions are irrational subjects.

    But let me tell you that only a tiny minority of Muslims believes in the description of heaven you are referring to, to be exactly accurate. Even if it's still irrational, it's more complex than that.



    Yeah, the Ottoman Empire was so tolerant, taxing the non-Muslims so they could live peacefully never holding power, in a kind of bizarre caste system, which eventually crumbled into shit, where children of Muslim fathers were forced to be Muslim and Christians were eventually persecuted.

    It was a beautiful thing.

    The Ottoman Empire's religious tolerance reminds me of early capitalists in the North being praised for not having slaves. It's like, oh, they're not holding slaves, but they're working people literally to death (on the line) in factories. Hmm.
    But the paradox remains that the Kanuni laws were nonetheless far more tolerant than what you could observe in Europe at the same time.
    You should wait until the coming of the Dutch republic to suddenly witness the first gleams of the Enlightenment age.

    And then, history effectively changed.


    You've got a really imaginary world view, and I'd love to direct you pointedly toward the resurgence in European nationalism.


    Yeah, you know, those French people and their complete obliviousness to race. And their French nationalism.

    Huh?

    All I said was that from a French perspective, the manic obsession of most Americans about "race" is disturbing and somewhat incomprehensible. It is a cultural fact. Nonetheless, US citizens have managed to elect Obama, meaning that the situation is more complex than it seems.

    I'm sure each culture could learn a lot from each other.



    I prefer Neo-nazis. At least they have specific targets.
    Really?

    Well, Neo-Nazis and Al-Qaïdists have at least something in common: their hatred towards Jews.

    Woe is me: I'm Jew!

    What did I do to deserve this?


    I think I'm more realistic than you are. You seem impassioned for the cause of Islam.


    Believe me: for most Al Qaïdist, a Zionist-Atheistic-Materialistic Jew like myself is an abomination, if not the devil incarnate.

    It's the first time ever somebody tells me "I'm impassioned for the cause of Islam".
    All I said was that most Muslims I met when I used to live in northern Africa (and I've spent several years there), were OK, ordinary people, no less different in many ways than their Christian counterparts. I should even dare to say that most of them are friendlier than the average Westerner.

    But maybe it's a blasphemy for you? I don't know!



    Then maybe people from Central Asia shouldn't go to Russia. Just a thought.
    Then maybe Russia shouldn't have invaded and colonized these countries, and imported lot and lot of people to work as cheap labour force in Russia?
    Their fate is even worst than your own Mexican-Americans, because most of them didn't have a choice: their families were ruthlessly deported during the Soviet era. So now, when you are from a Kazakh family that hails from Moscow, what do you do?

    I mean, I don't go plop myself down in the middle of Saudi Arabia in a bikini, do I?
    You definitely shouldn't.


    At least regular governments tend to follow rules, there are systems in place, terrorists are just jackasses who murder civilians, and leave people wondering why.
    If your government asks you to shoot civilians, would you blindly follow that direct order?

    Have you heard of the Milgram experiment?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  10. #70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    How can that be true when some Buddhists or Taoists are atheists?

    And underlying principles doesn't suggest an actual belief in a personal God.

    I honestly think it's a form of ignorance to ignore all Eastern thought.


    Why do you assume I'm ignorant of those belief systems? I know them but do not understand them as you do, I would describe them as non-theist rather than a-theist, I do that mainly to make the distinction between those beliefs and western or scientific atheism but there are other thinkers, like Erich Fromm, who used that too.

    Fromm was Jewish and there were Jews in the time of Jesus and still are today who dont believe in an afterlife, personal saviour or deity. I dont simply mean individuals who identify with Jewish culture or heritage or perhaps as an ethnicity but dont practice a religious tradition either, Fromm was very religious and practiced the religion he was born into but did not believe in an afterlife or deity.

Similar Threads

  1. Why do I fall in love with everyone?
    By Aquarelle in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 03-18-2011, 11:17 AM
  2. Could you fall in love with an INTJ?
    By maydelle in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 11-08-2010, 09:02 PM
  3. [INTJ] INTJ falls in love with INTJ...
    By Misty_Mountain_Rose in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 01-12-2009, 02:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO