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  1. #51
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually new age spirituality makes just as much sense as atheism, and when you study varying world religions, if you can see the underlying concept that connects them all, it's very enlightening.

    It's not about the mythology. It's about the profound ideas that are underlying it.

    And yes I think it does take "comparative religion" to understand it fully.
    To compare religions on a public forum can only result into bigoted, offensive results. Look at this thread for instance!

    That's why I said it was a game. Ideally, nobody should care about the fact I'm a soulless atheist, that INTP is a staunch Muslim, that Wildcat is a Jesus groupie and so on. It can only lead us to pointless debates.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Western "Christian" culture can also be incredibly dangerous. After all, we invented Bigotry, Intolerance (yes -it is historically a Christian concept), Nationalism, Fascism, Nazsim, Totalitarianism and Stalinism.
    We invented bigotry and intolerance? You must think a little too highly of white people to think they "invented" bigotry and intolerance.

    Nationalism doesn't bother me unless it's taken to extremes, and there's nothing Christian about Stalinism, Stalin didn't even pretend to be a Christian (or religious at all) so that's a very bizarre thing for you to even say.





    I think that unfortunately you have a very idealized view of Russian people and Russian politics. You know, I live with a Russian girl, so I'd rather say that Russia, as a whole, is one of the most unfriendly, chauvinistic and racist society I've ever met. And it's a very brutal dictatorship. They have genocided people around them countless times and are still proud of having done it (my girlfriend hypothetizes that it might be a culturally Mongol inherited trait). And I've been lot of times in Russia, I think I know how to handle Russians and avoid troubles. Some of them are very nice, though, but you have to know them well to break the ice.
    Did you know that Native Americans are probably Mongol too? So did I also inherit genocide? I sincerely hope so, so I can prove you right.

    Anyway, I know a lot of Russian people. It's like I walk outside and they fall from the fucking sky. I worked for a Russian, my therapist is a Russian, I rented from Russians (the wife took care of me when I indeed was sick, and they tell me they love me as family), I have been involved with the kindest sweetest Russian man at one point, had a Russian math professor, and the rudest Russian I ever knew just told me he thought I was paranoid.

    Yes, those crazy Russians. I have known some real pigs from the former USSR, but I don't so much attribute that to being Russian as to being pigs. Like this one guy who managed to have a dying wife, a mistress, and asked me why I wasn't interested in him.

    But none of them threatened to bomb me or kill my family or blow up my government buildings.

    Really important distinction. I'm hard-pressed to think of an American landmark that was destroyed by a Russian, much less A RUSSIAN CIVILIAN.

    What exactly do Russian civilians do to people? Give them nasty looks? I mean my ESFJ ex thought Russian women were such bitches they were probably giving him dirty looks.

    Anyway, you're dead wrong about Muslims countries. Despite their relative misogyny, if there is one thing you cannot blame them it's their sense of solidarity and comradeship, the way they help each other or anybody in trouble. It's mandatory for them to help the poors and the destitutes.

    In Russia, you could die in the streets, it would make no difference for the entire neighbourhood.



    Complexity.
    My experience of Russian people is that they're very communal, I was treated like family by more than one group of Russians, and I've read that they're historically collectivistic.

    Come again.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    To compare religions on a public forum can only result into bigoted, offensive results. Look at this thread for instance!

    That's why I said it was a game. Ideally, nobody should care about the fact I'm a soulless atheist, that INTP is a staunch Muslim, that Wildcat is a Jesus groupie and so on. It can only lead us to pointless debates.
    I never thought of INTP as a Muslim or Wildcat as a Jesus groupie, but it's good to know that you do.

  4. #54
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    We invented bigotry and intolerance? You must think a little too highly of white people to think they "invented" bigotry and intolerance.
    O yes we did.

    The Greek and Roman pagan world did many ugly things, but at least Pericles and Caesar would have found the mere concept of a religious war to be rather crazy.

    Bigotry and Religious Intolerance are concepts that are linked to the birth of Christianism. I should recommend you to read Saint Augustine, Saint John Chrysostome, Tertulian ... etc...

    Nationalism doesn't bother me unless it's taken to extremes, and there's nothing Christian about Stalinism, Stalin didn't even pretend to be a Christian (or religious at all) so that's a very bizarre thing for you to even say.
    To understand Stalinism, you have to read Marx. To understand Marx, you have to read Hegel. To understand Hegel you have to read Kant... et caetera...
    Totalitarianism is an idea that takes its roots deep into our Western culture, even if now, several non western-people have also adopted it throughout the course of the XXth century.
    And indeed, Al Qaïdism and Maoïsm are new branches of Totalitarianism.


    Did you know that Native Americans are probably Mongol too? So did I also inherit genocide? I sincerely hope so, so I can prove you right.
    Is it a silly joke or are you serious?

    Anyway, I know a lot of Russian people. It's like I walk outside and they fall from the fucking sky. I worked for a Russian, my therapist is a Russian, I rented from Russians (the wife took care of me when I indeed was sick, and they tell me they love me as family), I have been involved with the kindest sweetest Russian man at one point, had a Russian math professor, and the rudest Russian I ever knew just told me he thought I was paranoid.

    Yes, those crazy Russians. I have known some real pigs from the former USSR, but I don't so much attribute that to being Russian as to being pigs. Like this one guy who managed to have a dying wife, a mistress, and asked me why I wasn't interested in him.
    You know, you might think I am crazy but I suspect that to meet lot of Russians, you have to go to Russia.

    Then perhaps you may understand why so many of them want to flee this hellish place.

    But none of them threatened to bomb me or kill my family or blow up my government buildings.
    Once again, it's funny because some of them already did this with me. Of course, being a Jew helps.

    Or being a Chechen, it's even better: the Russian army has already razed Groznyi to ground level (worst than Warsaw during WWII).

    Really important distinction. I'm hard-pressed to think of an American landmark that was destroyed by a Russian, much less A RUSSIAN CIVILIAN.

    What exactly do Russian civilians do to people? Give them nasty looks? I mean my ESFJ ex thought Russian women were such bitches they were probably giving him dirty looks.
    What exactly did the American people in Vietnam, tell me?

    Well... Russians have done the same around them... but 5 times more.



    My experience of Russian people is that they're very communal, I was treated like family by more than one group of Russians, and I've read that they're historically collectivistic.

    Come again.
    Welcome to Moscow!

    Gavarish po Russky?

    ---

    Paka!
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 04-24-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    O yes we did.

    The Greek and Roman pagan world did many ugly things, but at least Pericles and Caesar would have found the mere concept of a religious war to be rather crazy.

    Bigotry and Religious Intolerance are concepts that are linked to the birth of Christianism. I should recommend you to read Saint Augustine, Saint John Chrysostome, Tertulian ... etc...



    To understand Stalinism, you have to read Marx. To understand Marx, you have to read Hegel. To understand Hegel you have to read Kant... et caetera...
    Totalitarianism is an idea that takes its roots deep into our Western culture, even if now, several non western-people have also adopted it during the XXth century.

    This is all insane. There's nothing bigoted in the teachings of Jesus. Jews think they're the chosen people, and the Japanese think they're special beings, so you could tenuously link bigotry and racism to Asia, I guess. But those people are Mongoloid not Caucasian.

    They're Asian. You're blaming white Europeans for bigotry and intolerance. And I honestly am inclined to think that's a bit disturbed. You must not have much experience with ...people. As a whole.

    Is it a silly joke or a you serious?
    Serious. Land bridge. Don't care what you think, if you think Native Americans are the "fourth race" or believe they are Mongol (they probably are, look at the eyes, my nephew looks half-Japanese for crissakes)...[removed]

    STFU.



    You know, you might think I am crazy but I suspect that to meet lot of Russians, you have to go to Russia.
    True. But all the ones I've met in America aren't blowing shit up. Never met one. Not once. You seem to be missing my point, that even when I watch the news, Russians aren't blowing up my subway.

    Then perhaps you may understand why so many of them want to flee this hellish place.
    I've talked to them about it, and I can't wait to visit!



    Once again, it's funny because some of them already did this with me. Of course, being a Jew helps.

    Or being a Chechen, it's even better: the Russian army has already razed Groznyi to ground level (worst than Warsaw during WWII).
    A Chechen Jew, how exciting. And subjective.


    What exactly did the American people in Vietnam, tell me?

    Well... Russians have done the same around them... but 5 times more.
    I never said Russian people were perfect or magnificent (they're like American people who refuse to smile) but they still don't flatten the World Trade Center, and I appreciate that.



    Welcome to Moscow!
    Thanks. Someday.
    Last edited by Ivy; 04-26-2013 at 10:21 PM. Reason: attack removed

  6. #56
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This is all insane. There's nothing bigoted in the teachings of Jesus. Jews think they're the chosen people, and the Japanese think they're special beings, so you could tenuously link bigotry and racism to Asia, I guess. But those people are Mongoloid not Caucasian.

    They're Asian. You're blaming white Europeans for bigotry and intolerance. And I honestly am inclined to think that's a bit disturbed. You must not have much experience with ...people. As a whole.
    You know, the word "tolerance" derives from latin tolerantia. And it is a religious Christian concept: historically, edict of tolerance were special cases where the Christian majority could authorize that others could display in public another faith than their own. But the common rule in Europe was intolerance. At least, before the Enlightenment age (bless be Locke on that matter!).

    You can blame Chinese and Japanese societies of many ugly things, but for them intolerantia (religious intolerance) is a foreign concept, or rather a concept that had to be imported from the Western world (bless be the Portuguese missionaries!).


    Serious. Land bridge. Don't care what you think, if you think Native Americans are the "fourth race" or believe they are Mongol (they probably are, look at the eyes, my nephew looks half-Japanese for crissakes)...but [removed]

    STFU.
    I don't believe in races. I'm not American.



    True. But all the ones I've met in America aren't blowing shit up. Never met one. Not once. You seem to be missing my point, that even when I watch the news, Russians aren't blowing up my subway.
    No they aren't blowing your subway. But that doesn't mean the Russian government behaves like a benevolent angel towards its very unfortunate neighbours.


    I've talked to them about it, and I can't wait to visit!
    Then learn.


    A Chechen Jew, how exciting. And subjective.
    Unfortunately, I don't have the pleasure to be Chechen.

    When you'll be in Moscow, please observe carefully the way Russians treat and ruthlessly exploit this people: you will surely have interesting anecdotes to tell us after your journey.


    I never said Russian people were perfect or magnificent (they're like American people who refuse to smile) but they still don't flatten the World Trade Center, and I appreciate that.
    The WTC is not the center of the world. America is not the center of the world.

    The Russian goverment is responsible for hundred of thousands of civilian deaths in Chechnya and the Caucasus area.

    So are you implying that you are grateful to the Russian government because they have chosen to vent their anger on the Chechens rather than on the WTC?
    Last edited by Ivy; 04-26-2013 at 10:22 PM. Reason: removed quoted attack
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  7. #57
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I never thought of INTP as a Muslim or Wildcat as a Jesus groupie, but it's good to know that you do.
    Does the careful use of the word "game" implies that I'm always dead serious on every occasion?
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    You know, the word "tolerance" derives from latin tolerantia. And it is a religious Christian concept: historically, edict of tolerance were special cases where the Christian majority could authorize that others could display in public another faith than their own. But the common rule in Europe was intolerance. At least, before the Enlightenment age (bless be Locke on that matter!).

    You can blame Chinese and Japanese societies of many ugly things, but for them intolerantia (religious intolerance) is a foreign concept, or rather a concept that had to be imported from the Western world (bless the Portuguese missionaries!).
    Is it? So the Ottoman Empire didn't have any religious intolerance?

    I am being quite serious, you seem nearly stupidly driven upon the idea that Christians created intolerance of religion, but that's awfully funny if you read the Old Testament, and that JEWS believed they worshiped the one true God, and Jews were in North Africa and Asia, obviously eventually Israel...which is still Asia.

    And Muslims are intolerant of other faiths, and they seem quite centered in Asia, though parts of Eastern Europe.

    Ottoman Empire again.

    Love the Ottoman Empire. Kind of a quaint old-fashioned version of "white people" rhetoric.




    I don't believe in races. I'm not American.
    You'd be happy to know that many people from Europe and Asia believe in races, I'm not sure why you think this is American; of course you also believe intolerance is European, so you probably also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, though you claim not to believe in God.





    No they aren't blowing your subway. But that doesn't mean the Russian government behaves like a benevolent angel towards its very unfortunate neighbours.
    HAHAHA.

    Government =/= civilians.

    Which is my point that I've been bolding all along. And because certain Muslim CIVILIANS are dangerous, they are an entirely different breed altogether, now, aren't they?



    Then learn.
    Learn to hate Russians? No thank you.

    I also don't hate Muslims. I'm just stating the reality of Muslim civilians in some cases to be more dangerous than Russian civilians.

    You really can't even make a comparison; it's comparing a country of diverse people to a faith where unfortunate cults have sprung up.




    Unfortunately, I don't have the pleasure to be Chechen.

    When you'll be in Moscow, please observe carefully the way Russians treat and ruthlessly exploit this people: you will surely have interesting anecdotes to tell us after your journey.
    I've not experienced this with Russians in America, except for that one guy with the dying wife. However, I'm sure if you visit New York City, you could experience something similar with Americans (though not so much in West Virginia; Moscow is not Russia and New York is not America).




    The WTC is not the center of the world. America is not the center of the world.

    The Russian goverment is responsible for hundred of thousands of civilian deaths in Chechnya and the Caucasus area.

    So are you implying that you are grateful to the Russian government that they have chosen to vent their anger on the Chechens rather than on the WTC?
    WTF are you talking about the Russian government when I'm talking about Russian civilians, over and over again, even bothering to bold it?

    How absolutely twee.

    I'm done with you.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Shows how out of touch I am with culture--or how sheltered Texas in general is from cultural standpoints. I've never heard of this kind of trend..
    I haven't either.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #60
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Is it? So the Ottoman Empire didn't have any religious intolerance?

    I am being quite serious, you seem nearly stupidly driven upon the idea that Christians created intolerance of religion, but that's awfully funny if you read the Old Testament, and that JEWS believed they worshiped the one true God, and Jews were in North Africa and Asia, obviously eventually Israel...which is still Asia.

    And Muslims are intolerant of other faiths, and they seem quite centered in Asia, though parts of Eastern Europe.

    Ottoman Empire again.

    Love the Ottoman Empire. Kind of a quaint old-fashioned version of "white people" rhetoric.
    I don't care about the Old Testament, I care about what really happened in the real world. I'm a soulless, materialistic Atheist, remember?

    You're right on one point: Muslims borrowed the concept of intolerance from early Christian theologists and tried to refine the concept in their own way (hence the "dhimma contract"). Somehow, intolerance is probably linked to every Abrahamic religion but only Christians and later Muslims had the political strength to test it in a systematic manner and on an extensive territory.

    Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that the first area of the Western world that passed tolerance edicts was Al-Andalus (temporary abolition of the Jizya tax). It was the first time in Europe that three religions could share a kind of similar political power in the same place. Unfortunately, this experiment didn't last very long and the Almoravid empire rule that succeeded was rather hostile to any non-Malekite point of view.


    You'd be happy to know that many people from Europe and Asia believe in races, I'm not sure why you think this is American; of course you also believe intolerance is European, so you probably also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, though you claim not to believe in God.
    Well, let's say that the concept of "races" tend to be somewhat excessive especially in the US, at least from my own point of view. When I used to live in the US, it was scaring to notice the improper use of the word "race" everywhere, how the American society was still segregated and obsessed by this outdated concept.

    I do not believe in human races because scientifically, there is no such thing with humans that could be remotely similar with what you can observe with dogs or plant taxa.
    And politically, many European countries do not feel the need to use that somewhat blurry concept, especially in everyday life. France is fortunately one of these countries, but most European citizens will share more or less the same point of view. With the policies on guns, the manic obsession about so-called human races is one of the greatest cultural divide between the two shores of the Atlantic ocean.



    HAHAHA.

    Government =/= civilians.

    Which is my point that I've been bolding all along. And because certain Muslim CIVILIANS are dangerous, they are an entirely different breed altogether, now, aren't they?
    The dangerous Muslim civilians you refer to are first and foremost dangerous to their people first. The first victims of Jihadist terrorists are Muslim citizens -look at statistics-.

    Al Qaïdism is a Totalitarian movement, I didn't pretend otherwise. But it's no less dangerous than our own Totalitarianism: It's a global political disease. Between Neo-Nazis and Jihadists, frankly, I don't know where my preference goes...







    Learn to hate Russians? No thank you.
    Good. I hope you won't learn to hate Russians. I do not hate them either or else I wouldn't live with a Russian woman.

    But I think you will learn to be more realistic with your appreciations nonetheless.


    I also don't hate Muslims. I'm just stating the reality of Muslim civilians in some cases to be more dangerous than Russian civilians.
    You really think you're the center of the world, don't you?

    If you're a Muslim from central Asia, believe me, Russian "civilians" can quickly become excessively dangerous. So your notion of "dangerousness" is very relative.


    You really can't even make a comparison; it's comparing a country of diverse people to a faith where unfortunate cults have sprung up.

    Indeed. Comparing the Russian empire and Muslim world makes no sense, and I'm glad you eventually noticed it.


    I've not experienced this with Russians in America, except for that one guy with the dying wife. However, I'm sure if you visit New York City, you could experience something similar with Americans (though not so much in West Virginia; Moscow is not Russia and New York is not America).
    I've already lived in NYC and travelled across the United States. Thank you.




    WTF are you talking about the Russian government when I'm talking about Russian civilians, over and over again, even bothering to bold it?

    How absolutely twee.

    I'm done with you.
    You know when you're dead, it makes absolutely no difference whether it was because of a Muslim madman crashing his plane on the WTC or a Spetsnaz automatic rifle's bullet. I would even dare to think that, as far as numbers are concerned, "regular" Governments tend to be far more effective at killing civilians than terrorists.
    It's a well-known vicious circle I've witnessed countless times in Israel. Violence feeds violence. Terrorist organizations feed on the violence of "regular" governments, and vice-versa. I don't have a clue how to stop it (it's a very complex tragedy, with lot of historical, social and economical factors involved), but I'm not a naive pacifist either.
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