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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    It's relevant from a comparison point of view (how it had been in the past and with others, therefore what the present, the future it would be). This comparison I wish to ignose because a topic/theory should/could be scrutinized and the tangible and intangible consequences of it be calculated on its own points (1st reason). (The could in the should/could is what I enjoy the most.) the other reason (which I refused to share) is that making a comparison one takes the gravity of the topic away. And no i'm not an intj which is mentioned in my signature. And yes I have been called an isfj by you (and only you) when we argue.
    I'm not arguing with you. In your mind we're arguing, but in my mind, I'm explaining to you how illogical you're being, you're attempting to socially maneuver the topic away from something that might personally offend someone, and you don't value Ni or Ne enough to even see why it's so crucial to comprehension for people to compare and contrast the two religions, especially in their cultural rather than purely scriptural manifestations.

    And I don't believe you. I believe I've seen at least one other person call you ISFJ.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm not arguing with you. In your mind we're arguing, but in my mind, I'm explaining to you how illogical you're being, you're attempting to socially maneuver the topic away from something that might personally offend someone, and you don't value Ni or Ne enough to even see why it's so crucial to comprehension for people to compare and contrast the two don't believe you. I believe I've seen at least one other person call you ISFJ.
    And in my mind i'm explaining that what I said was perfectly logical. Therefore although you say we are no, we actually are. Socially maneuvering could be done both ways with different goals. One way to do so is to make comparisons. And I don't believe you. I don't believe you've seen me being typed as an isfj. Unless of course as a joke. If you can guide me to that post? Oaky once typed me as an isfj, to humour me I believe. (But i'm not going to read his mind and assume he was thinking I am an entp when he typed that.)

  3. #43
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post

    In Western states... converting to Islam means something else.
    Indeed it does not. In western states converting to Islam means that exactly. It would not be unhelpful if you read the title of the thread. We are talking about women in love who convert to Islam. Only West offers the opportunity for a Christian woman to associate with a Muslim of the opposite gender. It is here they meet, not over there.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    And in my mind i'm explaining that what I said was perfectly logical. Therefore although you say we are no, we actually are. Socially maneuvering could be done both ways with different goals. One way to do so is to make comparisons. And I don't believe you. I don't believe you've seen me being typed as an isfj. Unless of course as a joke. If you can guide me to that post? Oaky once typed me as an isfj, to humour me I believe. (But i'm not going to read his mind and assume he was thinking I am an entp when he typed that.)
    Nope, not oaky, but him too?

    Anyway, Fe is a rational process, just like Fi. They seem like perfectly rational reasons to you, and they are. It's rational its own Fe way to not want people to disagree or argue, but you're showing a preference for avoiding what would be considered "rudeness" (Fe) of something that is culturally pertinent (Si) to the majority Americans (Fe) on this site because you want to dive deeper into the depth of the purity of the topic at hand (which shows a clear, clear preference for Si over Ni).

    As an aside I've never called you an ISFJ before, but someone else besides Oaky has; I called you an ESFJ once. I constantly see Fe rational valuation from you.

    Making comparisons in this case isn't social, it's trying to teach people something so that they don't "other" a concept emotionally or ethically so much that they aren't able to comprehend it on a more logical or intuitive way.

    It's actually an attempt to move people away from this emotional/ethical valuation into something more T or N based.

  5. #45
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    islam makes much more sense than christianity, so if someone who is an christian studies islam even a little, its natural that they get converted
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #46
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Indeed it does not. In western states converting to Islam means that exactly. It would not be unhelpful if you read the title of the thread. We are talking about women in love who convert to Islam. Only West offers the opportunity for a Christian woman to associate with a Muslim of the opposite gender. It is here they meet, not over there.
    Believe me, they also meet "over there". For instance in Morocco or Tunisia, expatriate women living with local Muslim men is a commonplace phenomena. And vice-versa.

    Once again, it is very interesting to read all the prejudices people here have against those so-called "shitty" countries, and to compare it with my own experience.

    You know, I will tell you a secret: before being Muslims, before some of you fantasize them as a kind of post cold-war enemy (a replacement for the dreaded Russians), Muslims are... simple and ordinary men and women. They aren't demons, and the Muslim world is too diverse to make crude generalities about the way they treat women. With all respect, I think most of you should be more specific: for instance, the kind of Islam you see in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan wildly differs from the one you will encounter in northern Africa or Indonesia.

    In Morocco you know, it may be incredibly strange to tell you this, but most husbands seem to treat their wives very respectfully and very peacefully. It's nothing close to the "akin to cattle" description. Most Moroccans I know are "normal people", with "normal families" and "normal lives". Nothing extraordinary.

    I tend to think that religion is an equal issue everywhere, and that includes the Christian world which also used to be extremely misogynistic not so long ago. But then, what really makes the difference is the local culture and the local political history.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Believe me, they also meet "over there". For instance in Morocco or Tunisia, expatriate women living with local Muslim men is a commonplace phenomena. And vice-versa.

    Once again, it is very interesting to read all the prejudices people here have against those so-called "shitty" countries, and to compare it with my own experience.

    You know, I will tell you a secret: before being Muslims, before some of you fantasize them as a kind of post cold-war enemy (a replacement for the dreaded Russians), Muslims are... simple and ordinary men and women. They aren't demons, and the Muslim world is too diverse to make crude generalities about the way they treat women. With all respect, I think most of you should be more specific: for instance, the kind of Islam you see in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan wildly differs from the one you will encounter in northern Africa or Indonesia.

    In Morocco you know, it may be incredibly strange to tell you this, but most husbands seem to treat their wives very respectfully and very peacefully. It's nothing close to the "akin to cattle" description. Most Moroccans I know are "normal people", with "normal families" and "normal lives". Nothing extraordinary.

    I tend to think that religion is an equal issue everywhere, and that includes the Christian world which also used to be extremely misogynistic not so long ago. But then, what really makes the difference is the local culture.
    Morocco is different, though, it's a very different culture. I accidentally made that distinction when comparing my high school bff's boyfriend of 3 years, and my sister's husband of less than a year.

    Some Muslim cultures are very dangerous, they really are, and my sister didn't believe them when they said so, and she got told.

    The problem isn't Islam, per se , it's culture, and yes, Morocco is one of the better places.

    Morocco is not representative of the entire Muslim world, though, and people do have cause to complain, it's not like they don't, as civilians they (Muslims) tend to be a lot more troubling than Russians.


    They aren't even the new Russians. Random Russians will give you soup and tea when you're sick, or teach your math class; I can't always say the same about "random Muslims" if they are from particular countries or religious sects.

    Russians can be anything from Russian Orthodox to pagan to atheist.

    Muslims can be anything from Moroccan to Iraqi to jihad.

  8. #48
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    If you wish to play that game:

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    islam makes much more sense than christianity, so if someone who is an christian studies islam even a little, its natural that they get converted
    Atheism islam makes much more sense than Religion christianity, so if someone who is religious an christian studies the world around islam even a little, its natural that they laugh at these nonsensical superstitions get converted.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If you wish to play that game:



    Atheism islam makes much more sense than Religion christianity, so if someone who is religious an christian studies the world around islam even a little, its natural that they laugh at these nonsensical superstitions get converted.
    Actually new age spirituality makes just as much sense as atheism, and when you study varying world religions, if you can see the underlying concept that connects them all, it's very enlightening.

    It's not about the mythology. It's about the profound ideas that are underlying it.

    And yes I think it does take "comparative religion" to understand it fully.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Morocco is different, though, it's a very different culture. I accidentally made that distinction when comparing my high school bff's boyfriend of 3 years, and my sister's husband of less than a year.

    Some Muslim cultures are very dangerous, they really are, and my sister didn't believe them when they said so, and she got told.
    Western "Christian" culture can also be incredibly dangerous. After all, we invented Bigotry, Intolerance (yes -it is historically a Christian concept), Nationalism, Fascism, Nazism, Totalitarianism and Stalinism.



    Morocco is not representative of the entire Muslim world, though, and people do have cause to complain, it's not like they don't, as civilians they tend to be a lot more troubling than Russians.

    They aren't even the new Russians. Random Russians will give you soup and tea when you're sick, or teach your math class; I can't always say the same about "random Muslims" if they are from particular countries or religious sects.
    I think that unfortunately you have a very idealized view of Russian people and Russian politics. You know, I live with a Russian girl, so I'd rather say that Russia, as a whole, is one of the most unfriendly, chauvinistic and racist society I've ever met. And it's a very brutal dictatorship. They have genocided people around them countless times and are still proud of having done it (my girlfriend hypothetizes that it might be a culturally Mongol inherited trait). And I've been lot of times in Russia, I think I know how to handle Russians and avoid troubles. Some of them are very nice, though, but you have to know them well to break the ice.

    Anyway, you're dead wrong about Muslims countries. Despite their relative misogyny, if there is one thing you cannot blame them it's their sense of solidarity and comradeship, the way they help each other or anybody in trouble. It's mandatory for them to help the poors and the destitutes.

    In Russia, you could die in the streets, it would make no difference for the entire neighbourhood.

    Russians can be anything from Russian Orthodox to pagan to atheist.

    Muslims can be anything from Moroccan to Iraqi to jihad.
    Complexity.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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