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  1. #31
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I've also never heard of the western women converting to Islam trend, and I grew up across the street from a major mosque in a metropolitan area. Not saying it's not true, but maybe it's a UK thing? Sounds really silly, and based on little aside from the possible spin presented here, it sounds like they might be doing it as a political statement or to be rebellious rather than out of understanding, but I don't know enough to say.

    However, I can say that if people ARE in fact converting to any religion for reasons aside from genuine desire to convert (or pragmatic legal necessity), I think that's a little sad.

    I think that how people connect to and interpret the symbolic and unanswerable has profound effects on how you behave.

    To answer the OP question, I think that people can learn from their partners, and perhaps feel that the insight their partners gain from their religion is worth converting to the same. And people adapt to each other.

    Personally, I'd find it very difficult to accept a belief system much different than my own unless I saw that she was truly stronger, more graceful, more capable, more compassionate, more effective than she would be otherwise. If she led by example and turned out better for it, I'd know she had something going for her. That said, I'd be more inclined to believe that it's more HOW she behaved/worshiped/connected that would really make the difference rather than what religion it came from.
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  2. #32
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    ^ Lets not drag christianity to this. It is sad and annoying that christianity gets dragged to religious, political, philosophical debates that has nothing much to do with christianity. The new testament and the koran are extremely different from one another, so it's not logical to make a comparison. (The old testament is a different story however.) Have you read the koran?
    It gets dragged in because it is a familiar point of reference. (Because if I went on and on about the Koran, I might get asked if I've even studied it like I'm not allowed to participate if I'm not a subject expert on the matter..) I studied the Koran only briefly.. but it is interesting what you can find when studying the raw word of religions. In my brief studies, I found far more sexism in the Christian word than I did in Islamic texts. They are not very subtle about it in The Bible. It helped having a fundamental Islamic lady in the class with us, so we asked her tons of questions about her favorite passages and quotes, why they REALLY wear those things to cover their head, etc.

    The two books are different--but not as different as you might think. The Old Testament is, indeed, spot on with some of the Koran.. but that doesn't mean the Koran completely deviates from many of the lessons of the New Testament.

    Like I said. It is culture that dictates much of what we KNOW about religion--Not once in the Bible does it mention angels being the sweet, beautiful, cute things that people think of today. It was culture that created that imagery. Hell's imagery is very vague in the Bible--I Think only one passage, MAYBE two, have a description at all.. and it is Vague. Fire, and teeth. That's like, all we get, yet we have this huge idea of what it is--levels, and sins assigned to them.. this is culture that created it, not the word itself.

    We get to miss out on a TON of really cool, awesome, violent stories in the Bible just because they aren't particularly highlighted on. No one really learns a lesson from the story where the dudes were fighting over which God was more awesome, and then Christianity's God threw all sorts of shit like lightning or fire or something down and everyone was all "Dude, Boss!!" And no one really mentions the short story where the bear eats kids who were making fun of some dude. He totally tattled on the kids to God because the kids were being jerks, as kids are wont to do, and God allowed a bear to go eat those damn kids--because teasing others is wrong enough for death by bear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    ^let's not drag the primary religion that most the posters here are likely familiar with into a topic about religion.

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  3. #33
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    That's why I question @Riva even being an Ne dom, I can't believe that anyone with any kind of N function developed, even tertiary, wouldn't understand why Christianity has to get dragged into this conversation.

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Though, I wonder how many marriages flow well with two people being of different religions? I don't mean Protestant vs Catholic... where the semantics come from whether the kid eats bread at certain times.. I mean atheist and devout, muslim and christian, pagan and jewish, etc. You really just don't see that very often.. It is part of what really confuses me about religion. It is all about bringing people together--of believing in the same thing.. but if the semantics are a little different, exclude the shit out of them. I don't think if I were Christian I would have a hard time loving a Jewish or Muslim man... but I view the religions as being very close together. It is the culture that dictates a lot of the major differences between 'religions', not the religions themselves.
    My INTP is Methodist, I am Pagan, and it's worked for > 12 years now. We observe both sets of holidays, and generally go our own way for worship, but "visit" each other's groups now and then. Religions of the book seem to be more restrictive that way. No one in Pagan circles has ever discouraged my occasional participation in Christian activities, the way Christians are often mistrustful and judgmental about Pagans (or other non-Christians, or even Christians of other denominations). One need only understand and accept the subjective nature of faith. People combine families and cultures when mating up; why not religions? To us, it is just different ways of looking at the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    The package of Islam does not come with only a religion, it also comes with a culture and ethnicity (they even change their names - what other converts do this?). When one converts to islam one becomes a muslim. And when one becomes a muslim one rejects not only one's religion (which is private and a point of view, therefore not very visible), one rejects also one's tribe (culture, ethnicity). That is not something people take well. Islam is also very sexist, racist, violent, extremist pedophilic and its beliefs are - almost always - counter progressive unity, science, humanity and tolerance. So if any man/woman converts to that religion others might not be quite accepting. What is most pathetic are those human rights organizations (UN etc) not taking action against countries that have adopted and made law of the sexist, racist, inhumane preachings of islam.
    All religion transpires within the context of a culture. And Catholic converts at one time changed their names if they were not already Catholic names (Biblical, or from saints). I knew quite a few (non-Catholic) Asians in college who attended Catholic school in Hong Kong or Taiwan and were given saints' names by the nuns, which they then used as their English names in the U.S. Pagans often take new names when joining a group or tradition, or making a formal commitment to their spiritual path. Most use these names only for spiritual purposes, but some change them legally.

    Judging by the Bible, Christianity is also violent, sexist, and bigoted in other ways. Christians generally just seem more willing to take their scriptures figuratively, though exceptions abound. It is possible to do the same with Islam, and to experience it in a much more progressive culture and context. I have found some of the most beautiful and inspiring descriptions of the divine in the writings of contemporary Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    There is a Muslim woman on another site who lives in a more sane culture, who explained that she feels very respected by her body being covered, and she feels that it is the women who show off their bodies to strange men for approval and are liked for their appearance instead of their soul who are degraded, and honestly in that moment this Muslim woman seemed like a smarter feminist than a lot of Western women I know.
    Agreed. It shouldn't have to be one extreme or the other. This perspective is quite sane.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I've also never heard of the western women converting to Islam trend, and I grew up across the street from a major mosque in a metropolitan area. Not saying it's not true, but maybe it's a UK thing?
    Basically.... just combine an essentially irreligious population (the British) with (in certain British cities) relatively large numbers of devout Muslims (or cultural Muslims with devout families) who will tend to date, but not marry, people of different faiths, and then stir. Muslim women are generally socialized and pressured not to even date outside of the faith, so such conversions tend to be predominately that of women converting to Islam in order to marry a Muslim. That said, I'm not sure just how widespread converting to Islam among British women actually is, its probably just a drop in the bucket in absolute terms.

    In the United States, there are far fewer numbers of Muslims, and non-Muslims are far more likely to be sufficiently religious that nominally converting to what is commonly considered a theologically incompatible faith is not something that many women are prepared to do. The essentially negative public image of Islam in the United States may also be a factor, but I'm unsure how much (if any) that differs from the UK situation.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Basically.... just combine an essentially irreligious population (the British) with (in certain British cities) relatively large numbers of devout Muslims (or cultural Muslims with devout families) who will tend to date, but not marry, people of different faiths, and then stir. Muslim women are generally socialized and pressured not to even date outside of the faith, so such conversions tend to be predominately that of women converting to Islam in order to marry a Muslim. That said, I'm not sure just how widespread converting to Islam among British women actually is, its probably just a drop in the bucket in absolute terms.

    In the United States, there are far fewer numbers of Muslims, and non-Muslims are far more likely to be sufficiently religious that nominally converting to what is commonly considered a theologically incompatible faith is not something that many women are prepared to do. The essentially negative public image of Islam in the United States may also be a factor, but I'm unsure how much (if any) that differs from the UK situation.
    In the U.S. African Americans are more likely to convert to Islam, usually due to a cultural identification with Northern African countries, as far as I can tell.

    Most converts to Islam are women, world wide, not men. It's like 1 in 4 are men, all others are women.

    It's the tendency of women to peace weave or sleep with the enemy, I am telling you; men are territorial, women are much easier to seduce into enemy territory by appealing males of that tribe, whatever tribe it is.

  7. #37
    Riva
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    The reason why I wish to keep christianity away from this and other non-christianity related discussions is because then the subject of the topic suddenly chages, it becomes a spat between certain groups and nothing else that could be done from that point onwardsto turn the vibe back to the original subject. I can give plenty of examples/threads for this (though I can't do it now because i've logged through my phone).
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    That's why I question @Riva even being an Ne dom, I can't believe that anyone with any kind of N function developed, even tertiary, wouldn't understand why Christianity has to get dragged into this conversation.
    Ah 'the' question to ask at a heat of an argument. Clever girl! The reason for you to question my Ne dom ness in this particular moment is the premise that I 'do not understand why'. But dear marmotini I do understand why. I was merely suggesting/telling it for the reasons given above and there are two more reasons for which I said so out of which one I will share an the other I shall not if anyone wishes to know.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    The reason why I wish to keep christianity away from this and other non-christianity related discussions is because then the subject of the topic suddenly chages, it becomes a spat between certain groups and nothing else that could be done from that point onwardsto turn the vibe back to the original subject. I can give plenty of examples/threads for this (though I can't do it now because i've logged through my phone).
    It's relevant from an intellectual or logical standpoint, it's also relevant from an Ni standpoint (claiming it now as your dom function? I don't think so, son), as relating the underlying meaning of varying religions or cultures or phenomenon to one another.

    Your reasoning for avoiding seems decidedly Fe.


    Ah 'the' question to ask at a heat of an argument. Clever girl! The reason for you to question my Ne dom ness in this particular moment is the premise that I 'do not understand why'. But dear marmotini I do understand why. I was merely suggesting/telling it for the reasons given above and there are two more reasons for which I said so out of which one I will share an the other I shall not if anyone wishes to know.
    So no one else tells you you're an ISFJ? No one?

  9. #39
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Wow. This thread is quite enlightening. I guess I don't have anything insightful to add because I was never really religious in the first place -- and I grew up in a Chinese/Buddhism context, with more emphasis on traditions than faith.

    I don't expect my partner to share my faith (if I have one), and I would not want him to be imposing his faith on me (even if he genuinely believes it will 'save my soul' whatsoever). However, I don't have a problem with people converting 'in name' to be with their partner, as long as both people understand that it is simply to keep people around them happy. Honestly, I think it makes life a lot easier for the couple. Again, since I don't have any strong religious beliefs, I naturally don't view this as renouncing your faith for your partner's. It might be different for people who do believe though.
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  10. #40
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's relevant from an intellectual or logical standpoint, it's also relevant from an Ni standpoint (claiming it now as your dom function? I don't think so, son), as relating the underlying meaning of varying religions or cultures or phenomenon to one another.Your reasoning for avoiding seems decidedly Fe.So no one else tells you you're an ISFJ? No one?
    It's relevant from a comparison point of view (how it had been in the past and with others, therefore what the present, the future it would be). This comparison I wish to ignose because a topic/theory should/could be scrutinized and the tangible and intangible consequences of it be calculated on its own points (1st reason). (The could in the should/could is what I enjoy the most.) the other reason (which I refused to share) is that making a comparison one takes the gravity of the topic away. And no i'm not an intj which is mentioned in my signature. And yes I have been called an isfj by you (and only you) when we argue.

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