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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I really think it depends. If you're in love, you're willing to do and think crazy things to be with that person.

    I don't think she's pathetic for switching religions--people do that a lot. The reality is, if the religion was that important to them, they wouldn't fall in love with someone outside of it. If they're like most people--a bit lost on the whole process, not really as devoted as they ought to be, etc.. God is God is God to a lot of people.. and changing the way you worship God is sometimes easier to change than to throw emotions out the window. We're emotionally driven beings. You might as well ask someone to stop breathing. They'll swim all day, every day, if it meant they still get to breathe, even if they used to live on land.

    And there are a lot of family conditions that are affected by religious views. Mothers that wouldn't ever approve of a marriage and make it harder on the marriage to succeed, communities that would treat her as an outsider, etc. Maybe she isn't very religious to begin with. Or maybe she is, but she's so in love that she's willing to change an entire personal philosophical view just to be with that person. Whatever it is, there are many motivations for changing religions that are just plain practical. (Like laws that blackmail spoke about, family interactions, and consistency with child care, food preparation, and household morals.)

    It is also much more likely for a woman to change a religion than for a male. Males just seem, more often than not, to not want to budge with the things they want in life. They'd rather not budge and support a nagging woman that was pretty much forced to change if she wanted to be with him, than for them to change and need support from their spouse.

    I do know a girl IRL though that is quite what I would consider pathetic. She changed religious views about 3-4 times for boyfriends... not people she intended on marrying.. just boyfriends. I think there's some major introspection that needs to take place there.
    I think it's possible though what he's criticizing as pathetic is someone romanticizing it, maybe what I'm describing, it really has become a cultural trend for Western women of European descent to convert to Islam or romanticize Arabic Muslim men; my best friend from high school was in a relationship with a very nice man from Morocco who also happens to be a Muslim, and he was very religious, but from a culture that wasn't as scary (of course most intelligent people understand that it is the culture of particular countries or acts of extremist sects, not Islam itself, that can be creepy) ...so they had a good relationship for about three years while he was in grad school in the U.S.

    The problem came when he said he could not marry a woman who was not a Muslim and that he wanted to go back to Morocco to be near his family/parents, and she found as nice as he treated her and as much as she genuinely loved him as an individual, she still could not convert and move to his country and live as his wife, and she cried about it for easily a year.

    That's a story of really falling in love, I think, and still not being able to handle the culture shock. My sister on the other hand, I think her ex-husband was a brute who was connected with terrorist-sympathizers, and she committed the mistake of marrying a man she found sexually attractive without getting to know him first, because she romanticized his background.

    My sister is still very attracted to Arabic men, though. I just hope if she gets involved again, it will be with a more Americanized man of Arabic descent who she loves as an individual, and not for romantic ideas about his culture. I don't think that will be a problem after the shock of what she experienced with her ex husband.

    I know being attracted to particular races or cultures seems pathetic to some people, like I concerned myself for a time asking myself if I was attracted to xyz individual BECAUSE he was Russian, and the answer was quickly no when I met other men from the former USSR who I found physically unappealing or appalling in personality, I was reassured that although I like a certain culture, I'm still attracted to individuals, not their race.

    Because that is not a good reason to be with someone, like my sister's brief young marriage, or like men who sexually fetishize far East Asian women and then are shocked when she's Americanized and not a fantasy love slave.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Islam is really no worse than Christianity where women are concerned. It seems that more Christians have learned not to take everything in the Bible so literally. I suppose that makes me more inclined to equal-opportunity stone throwing; I'll criticise all of those religions.
    Yeah, I guess when it's part of a system, it makes for a bad system. I know godless men who are just as bad to their female partners. People, IMO, are people and to some degree simply use their belief systems to justify what they wanted to do anyway.
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  3. #23
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I think it's possible though what he's criticizing as pathetic is someone romanticizing it, maybe what I'm describing, it really has become a cultural trend for Western women of European descent to convert to Islam or romanticize Arabic Muslim men...
    Shows how out of touch I am with culture--or how sheltered Texas in general is from cultural standpoints. I've never heard of this kind of trend.. but the trend of romanticizing things in one's head far beyond what one actually expects is a common occurrence I have seen. This is a more interesting conversation if this is the OP's intent.. I haven't the foggiest clue the appeal of muslim men, but then again I also went to war in a country that happened to have muslim men that treated women akin to cattle.

    I could see Morocco being more romantic, though.

    The problem came when he said he could not marry a woman who was not a Muslim and that he wanted to go back to Morocco to be near his family/parents, and she found as nice as he treated her and as much as she genuinely loved him as an individual, she still could not convert and move to his country and live as his wife, and she cried about it for easily a year.
    An awfully sad tale... There is no right answer--converting for him wouldn't make her muslim.. she'd need to believe in this herself to truly be muslim, and if she did she'd probably have converted before meeting him... But not converting means certain termination of the relationship. It's a really lose-lose situation when there is zero religious tolerance in relationships.

    Though, I wonder how many marriages flow well with two people being of different religions? I don't mean Protestant vs Catholic... where the semantics come from whether the kid eats bread at certain times.. I mean atheist and devout, muslim and christian, pagan and jewish, etc. You really just don't see that very often.. It is part of what really confuses me about religion. It is all about bringing people together--of believing in the same thing.. but if the semantics are a little different, exclude the shit out of them. I don't think if I were Christian I would have a hard time loving a Jewish or Muslim man... but I view the religions as being very close together. It is the culture that dictates a lot of the major differences between 'religions', not the religions themselves.

    I know being attracted to particular races or cultures seems pathetic to some people, like I concerned myself for a time asking myself if I was attracted to xyz individual BECAUSE he was Russian, and the answer was quickly no when I met other men from the former USSR who I found physically unappealing or appalling in personality, I was reassured that although I like a certain culture, I'm still attracted to individuals, not their race.
    I had a similar encounter where I was worried I was attracted to men from the UK simply for cultural reasons.. but not at all.

    Because that is not a good reason to be with someone, like my sister's brief young marriage, or like men who sexually fetishize far East Asian women and then are shocked when she's Americanized and not a fantasy love slave.
    While I can definitely understand WHY someone would create a sort of physical attraction fetish--asian women are very beautiful, and I rarely ever see one that I don't find at least somewhat more attractive than me--THAT sort of thing.. Believing Arabic men are some romantic trash-novel protagonists, or thinking Asian women are obedient, nympho wife material that'll teach their kids karate and math, even just in the slightest bit is a really poisonous thing.

    Even so... it is blurring the lines. I can see it being very, very hard to tell what you really believe when you're in love. It's like driving in a tunnel, so all you look at is the light regardless of all the signs on the tunnel telling you where you're driving toward.. without ever thinking once that maybe, if you stopped right then, you could back up a bit and examine the entrance of the tunnel more before actually driving into it.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Shows how out of touch I am with culture--or how sheltered Texas in general is from cultural standpoints. I've never heard of this kind of trend.. but the trend of romanticizing things in one's head far beyond what one actually expects is a common occurrence I have seen. This is a more interesting conversation if this is the OP's intent.. I haven't the foggiest clue the appeal of muslim men, but then again I also went to war in a country that happened to have muslim men that treated women akin to cattle.

    I could see Morocco being more romantic, though.
    I don't know, but some people will even act like it's epidemic, and for some reason I believe it just because what I've seen around me, and also stuff I've seen on-line, statistics like the #1 converts to Islam in the UK are white women.



    An awfully sad tale... There is no right answer--converting for him wouldn't make her muslim.. she'd need to believe in this herself to truly be muslim, and if she did she'd probably have converted before meeting him... But not converting means certain termination of the relationship. It's a really lose-lose situation when there is zero religious tolerance in relationships.
    Yeah he was very conservative and she is very independent, even more so than me, she's an ENFJ, knew exactly what she wanted to do in her early twenties, has always had a career, owned her own company for a while, so in her case it was a big no no, it really was a case of no love does not conquer all, if the cultural divide is so huge it means not being authentic as an individual.

    I think that's why I don't find those cultures appealing, I guess that's why I don't see the appeal; it's too foreign too me, a little foreign is exciting, a lot foreign is just terrifying. I couldn't even claim to like Russian culture if I didn't also appreciate their literature and other aspects of their culture, not just some fantasy about sleeping with the enemy, or whatever...in fact, I didn't even fully recognize it for what it was until I was nearly 30 years old, and after I had known my math professor, and he really made me look inside my head and ask myself why I thought this or that, just because it intrigued him so much, he was like why, why would you find Russian culture so romantic, then he starts telling me all this Russian history, and about his own life and he was like "you know what? this stuff is romantic, I see it now, it's romantic to you like the Wild West in America is to me."

    Though, I wonder how many marriages flow well with two people being of different religions? I don't mean Protestant vs Catholic... where the semantics come from whether the kid eats bread at certain times.. I mean atheist and devout, muslim and christian, pagan and jewish, etc. You really just don't see that very often.. It is part of what really confuses me about religion. It is all about bringing people together--of believing in the same thing.. but if the semantics are a little different, exclude the shit out of them. I don't think if I were Christian I would have a hard time loving a Jewish or Muslim man... but I view the religions as being very close together. It is the culture that dictates a lot of the major differences between 'religions', not the religions themselves.
    I think it depends on how devout the partners are to their beliefs.



    I had a similar encounter where I was worried I was attracted to men from the UK simply for cultural reasons.. but not at all.
    Yeah it's good to know that you appreciate certain cultures more than others, and wouldn't mind being with a person from that culture, but that it's not specifically what you're looking for, because that is kind of weird.

    Like I remember one time a boy from India who I literally did not know at all, like I had just met him, told me he was looking to marry an American woman and I was like ..like wut? Do you mean you want a green card, or that you have such a strong fetish that any American lady will do?

    I don't think that's good. But people do have racial and cultural preferences, they just do. It happens.



    While I can definitely understand WHY someone would create a sort of physical attraction fetish--asian women are very beautiful, and I rarely ever see one that I don't find at least somewhat more attractive than me--THAT sort of thing.. Believing Arabic men are some romantic trash-novel protagonists, or thinking Asian women are obedient, nympho wife material that'll teach their kids karate and math, even just in the slightest bit is a really poisonous thing.
    Agreed.

    Even so... it is blurring the lines. I can see it being very, very hard to tell what you really believe when you're in love. It's like driving in a tunnel, so all you look at is the light regardless of all the signs on the tunnel telling you where you're driving toward.. without ever thinking once that maybe, if you stopped right then, you could back up a bit and examine the entrance of the tunnel more before actually driving into it.
    Well, we all are projecting something, each and every one of us, it's just that most people marry someone from such a similar background, even their own home town, that they just don't ever question it, but everyone does it to SOME EXTENT.

    It depends on how far you take it. Like when a guy says something like "every Asian woman to me is beautiful" I'm just like "I think you are objectifying these women and they probably don't appreciate it."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What is the real intent of this thread, then?I have already lived in a few predominantly Muslim countries (although I'm not Muslim myself), so I think I could tell you lot of stories and anecdotes about the subject of converting to Islam (or not). But, of course, if you're not here to debate and to exchange ideas, but only there to get an opportunity to tell us how much you hate those "shitty" countries, how "pathetic" these people are and so on... well... that's not the same discussion.Is it too difficult to understand?
    The package of Islam does not come with only a religion, it also comes with a culture and ethnicity (they even change their names - what other converts do this?). When one converts to islam one becomes a muslim. And when one becomes a muslim one rejects not only one's religion (which is private and a point of view, therefore not very visible), one rejects also one's tribe (culture, ethnicity). That is not something people take well. Islam is also very sexist, racist, violent, extremist pedophilic and its beliefs are - almost always - counter progressive unity, science, humanity and tolerance. So if any man/woman converts to that religion others might not be quite accepting. What is most pathetic are those human rights organizations (UN etc) not taking action against countries that have adopted and made law of the sexist, racist, inhumane preachings of islam.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I don't know, but some people will even act like it's epidemic, and for some reason I believe it just because what I've seen around me, and also stuff I've seen on-line, statistics like the #1 converts to Islam in the UK are white women.
    I really think I might look this up tonight.. this is, truly, the first I've heard of it.

    I think that's why I don't find those cultures appealing, I guess that's why I don't see the appeal; it's too foreign too me, a little foreign is exciting, a lot foreign is just terrifying.
    There has to be a sense of familiarity, doesn't there? When I first started working with the French soldiers in Uganda, I felt like there wasn't much to say to them. It was all very fancy-sounding lingo, coffee even though I cannot handle it and had to politely decline (lest they deal with a super hyper soldier for the entire day..) and uniforms that seemed more suited for the environment than my own urban-style digital pattern. So, I just stood there quietly and awkwardly after my polite good mornings.. Until one of them started playing with a stick to turn it into a bow, and I said "Kevin Costner?" and they ALL started laughing. Just having something a small in common as having watched the same movie really broke the ice, and we all got along great after that.

    I couldn't see myself working out in a relationship where there is such little in common outside of the relationship. It seems like life almost makes sure you realize that if you put all of your eggs into one basket knowingly that you'll fall for sure.

    Like I remember one time a boy from India who I literally did not know at all, like I had just met him, told me he was looking to marry an American woman and I was like ..like wut? Do you mean you want a green card, or that you have such a strong fetish that any American lady will do?
    I heard that a lot from the Ugandan soldiers. and I would ask them why, and they would go on about how awesome America would be, and shit.. and I said, "You know, just because you think America is awesome does not mean that the ladies you will marry there will be awesome. You cannot know that, and I think you are going to miss out on a lovely Ugandan lady thinking too much about American girls."

    It depends on how far you take it. Like when a guy says something like "every Asian woman to me is beautiful" I'm just like "I think you are objectifying these women and they probably don't appreciate it."
    Right. How awful would that be.. "Well, I like ALL Asian girls, you're just the first one that liked me back so Heyo honey!" How romantic.

    Projection is a pretty natural thing--and I think one of the worst things that comes naturally to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    The package of Islam does not come with only a religion. It comes with a culture and ethnicity. When one converts to islam one becomes a muslim. And when one becomes a muslim one rejects not only one's religion (which is private and a point of view, therefore not very visible), one rejects also one's tribe (culture, ethnicity). That is not something people take well. Islam is also very sexist, racist, violent, extremist pidophile and its beliefs are - almost always - counter progressive unity, science, humanity and tolerance. So if any man/woman converts to that religion others might not be quite accepting.
    Christianity is not far off in its beliefs by that logic. Islam is actually quite a beautiful, peaceful religion, in its essence and roots.. It is definitely no more violent or sexist than Christianity. It is people who are sexist, racist, violent, extremist, etc.. But, to some, it is people who create religions, so of course they will have that stuff that comes with it.
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  7. #27
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    ^ Lets not drag christianity to this. It is sad and annoying that christianity gets dragged to religious, political, philosophical debates that has nothing much to do with christianity. The new testament and the koran are extremely different from one another, so it's not logical to make a comparison. (The old testament is a different story however.) Have you read the koran?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post


    There has to be a sense of familiarity, doesn't there? When I first started working with the French soldiers in Uganda, I felt like there wasn't much to say to them. It was all very fancy-sounding lingo, coffee even though I cannot handle it and had to politely decline (lest they deal with a super hyper soldier for the entire day..) and uniforms that seemed more suited for the environment than my own urban-style digital pattern. So, I just stood there quietly and awkwardly after my polite good mornings.. Until one of them started playing with a stick to turn it into a bow, and I said "Kevin Costner?" and they ALL started laughing. Just having something a small in common as having watched the same movie really broke the ice, and we all got along great after that.
    I'm not really clear on what it is, it may be because some things were pushed on me young by my grandpa (military, also continued traveling and even living in other parts of the world after); it could be something that has never been explored by social scientists. I noticed when I was watching the film 4 (about a woman from rural Russia who moves to the city, among other things) I felt so much like in the scenery at some points I was looking at rural WV, my math professor also told me he felt very comfortable in West Virginia, he loved it (I was like, wut, really and you've been to other parts of the U.S.?) ...I noticed too that when I met my ENTJ friend from Yekaterinburg, who was not Americanized at all but had been studying English since he was 5/6, that we got along so easily, it was so natural, practically from the moment we met, and he felt very uncomfortable in L.A. and I realized that the stuff that made him want to go back to Russia made me think of West Virginia, and me (and @Orobas also met him for a couple of hours, don't know if she remembers) kept telling him "this is not the entirety of the U.S. our small towns are like what you are describing" He was utterly in culture shock, he could not deal with L.A. and he wanted to go back to Russia.

    I've also always been naturally drawn to French culture. I never had a problem connecting with French interns as a French minor in college.

    I don't know if some cultures are more similar to us as individuals, to what we knew regionally, or what.

    I couldn't see myself working out in a relationship where there is such little in common outside of the relationship. It seems like life almost makes sure you realize that if you put all of your eggs into one basket knowingly that you'll fall for sure.
    Yeah, I think I would have an extremely hard time relating to a working-class Mexican immigrant, though my middle-class American-raised half-Mexican ex were together for six years and were extremely close.

    That's just an example, there are other cultures that make me feel kind of like I'm grasping for something familiar and can't find it. I also got along just fine with my Argentine friends, felt right at home with them, but they are very educated people and I think there are some similarities there to Southern culture.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    ^ Lets not drag christianity to this. It is sad and annoying that christianity gets dragged to religious, political, philosophical debates that has nothing much to do with christianity. The new testament and the koran are extremely different from one another, so it's not logical to make a comparison. (The old testament is a different story however.) Have you read the koran?
    ^let's not drag the primary religion that most the posters here are likely familiar with into a topic about religion.

    Nice, bro.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    ^ Lets not drag christianity to this. It is sad and annoying that christianity gets dragged to religious, political, philosophical debates that has nothing much to do with christianity. The new testament and the koran are extremely different from one another, so it's not logical to make a comparison. (The old testament is a different story however.) Have you read the koran?
    My sister was very freaked out by the Koran, but she also does not like the Bible. My sister is an agnostic, and she used to have an empty birth control pack hanging up on a cork board with an index card beneath it pointing toward it that said, "religion."

    HOWEVER, I agree about the sexism that is so prevalent in Islamic cultures, but that same sexism has also been present in Christian cultures in the past. I had some Muslim friends from France who mused that Islam is where Christianity was about 500 years ago, and frankly I thought that sounded just about right.

    There is a Muslim woman on another site who lives in a more sane culture, who explained that she feels very respected by her body being covered, and she feels that it is the women who show off their bodies to strange men for approval and are liked for their appearance instead of their soul who are degraded, and honestly in that moment this Muslim woman seemed like a smarter feminist than a lot of Western women I know.

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