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  1. #91
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Islam is really no worse than Christianity where women are concerned. It seems that more Christians have learned not to take everything in the Bible so literally. I suppose that makes me more inclined to equal-opportunity stone throwing; I'll criticise all of those religions.

    More or less. Even if you make that argument that the New Covenant makes everything in the Old Testament irrelevant, I think Paul place a lot of restrictions on women.

    Also consider fact that the traditional marriage vow is to "honor and obey" husbands, without the same obligation expected of men.

    All the Abrahamic religions treat women as chattel in their most conservative, orthodox strains. It's not terribly surprising, considering that the Torah, Bible and Koran were written at least a millennium before feminism. If you expect everything in them to be taken literally (let's ignore the picking and choosing that usually happens), it's not surprising that there's going to be misogyny.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #92
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    More or less. Even if you make that argument that the New Covenant makes everything in the Old Testament irrelevant, I think Paul place a lot of restrictions on women.

    Also consider fact that the traditional marriage vow is to "honor and obey" husbands, without the same obligation expected of men.

    All the Abrahamic religions treat women as chattel in their most conservative, orthodox strains. It's not terribly surprising, considering that the Torah, Bible and Koran were written at least a millennium before feminism. If you expect everything in them to be taken literally (let's ignore the picking and choosing that usually happens), it's not surprising that there's going to be misogyny.
    I couldn't have said it better.

    As you said "All the Abrahamic religions treat women as chattel in their most conservative, orthodox strains". I do not perceive any deep theological difference between Christianity and Islam on that matter.
    That's why I'd hypothetize that the real difference we see is first and foremost due to local culture, traditions, ideology and local political history. The majority of Turcs and Afghans are supposed to practice the same strain of Islam (Sunni Hanafism), but yet the way they treat women is considerably different. That's why you can say that religion doesn't explain all this misogyny.
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  3. #93
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    For many people in many situations, yes.
    How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't believe in one-size-fits-all solutions.
    I think there's a level where the concept of a one-size-fits-all solution is possible. It's a level where these things become semantic games. Anyhow, exclusion of mysticism does not necessarily leave us with one size, does it?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think mystic tradition and spiritualism may be less an answer and more an acknowledgement that we cannot and will not know everything in a "knowledge" sense.
    That's the reasonable thing to think as a general point. But in practice one should behave as though there is no mystery we cannot solve. I loath the embracing of mysteries for their own sake, it breeds ignorance. I will grant you that in this regard perhaps mysticism accepts uncertainty, because mystics do love to wonder at the alledgedly unknowable.

    I still think it might come back to anxiety about uncertainty, though. I think people shut out facts if they undermine so much of the pre-existing worldview that they creatre more questions than answers. As such, it's preferable to assert that it is unknowable and look the other way.

    That being said, I'd still mysticism leans far more on sloppy answers.
    Astrology, spell casting, tarot card reading, chakras, crystal power, ghosts, prayer, miracles, creationism, etc... It's all a grab bag of crappy simple answers in place of either mysteries and/or complex answers (which are effectively mysteries for people who cannot grasp their complexity).

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Mysticism generally places emphasis on subjective personal communion with the presence of divinity, which is very much removed from "answers" and intellectual knowledge and is more about personal feeling and experiential understanding. I think it is a different type of truth that mystics and spiritualists are seeking.
    I have no idea what these means, and I am skeptical of its practical value.
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