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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's not just corporate negligence the whole country is to blame. We continue to want to have cheap food-like substances to sustain us no matter what the hidden costs may be. There's a serious question as to whether it's all that wise to be pumping nitrogen fertilizer into the ground across the country.
    Did you cross over from paleocon to primitivist just there?

  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Did you cross over from paleocon to primitivist just there?
    No. I don't think the old ways are better just because they're the old ways. I just think we've been ignorant of hidden costs in our societal search for wealth and efficiency.

    Actually, when it comes to issues like this in the back of my head is ordoliberal Wilhelm Roepke who I wrote about in my blog earlier this year...

    Dr. Mark T. Mitchell tells a story of German economist Wilhelm Röpke. Röpke was traveling through a post-WWII German village with a fellow economist. He was pointing out to his companion all the home vegetable gardens that the locals had industriously been tending to provide food for their own tables. The fellow economist sniffed and said that it was a very inefficient means of producing vegetables. Röpke paused and then responded:
    "Perhaps, but isn't it an efficient means of producing happiness?"
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No. I don't think the old ways are better just because they're the old ways. I just think we've been ignorant of hidden costs in our societal search for wealth and efficiency.

    Actually, when it comes to issues like this in the back of my head is ordoliberal Wilhelm Roepke who I wrote about in my blog earlier this year...
    I think there's a similar line in Shangrila (cant remember the proper name of the black and white movie or the book), although to be honest that's what some of the better paleocons and primitivists would say, the survivalists right too, its all good but I dont know if its that possible or liable to be that popular either.

  4. #14
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think there's a similar line in Shangrila (cant remember the proper name of the black and white movie or the book), although to be honest that's what some of the better paleocons and primitivists would say, the survivalists right too, its all good but I dont know if its that possible or liable to be that popular either.
    Possible???
    My brand of conservativism is grounded in reality, I'm merely interested in preserving the societal habits and activities that have proved to produce human happiness. I'm not interested in blindly progressing towards some utopian future.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Possible???
    My brand of conservativism is grounded in reality, I'm merely interested in preserving the societal habits and activities that have proved to produce human happiness. I'm not interested in blindly progressing towards some utopian future.
    I dont think I'd disagree with that, although then again I dont think anyone would, in many ways what you've described there could be a summation of what Marxism is for instance.

    Who's to say that the free market or any other conservative vision isnt a utopia too?

  6. #16
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think I'd disagree with that, although then again I dont think anyone would, in many ways what you've described there could be a summation of what Marxism is for instance.

    Who's to say that the free market or any other conservative vision isnt a utopia too?
    Well, I need to study it more, but the goal of the ordoliberals was to have a stronger state role and have a social market economy, but it's still capitalism. Ropke is given credit for using these principles in the remarkable economic recovery Germany saw after WWII.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Well, I need to study it more, but the goal of the ordoliberals was to have a stronger state role and have a social market economy, but it's still capitalism. Ropke is given credit for using these principles in the remarkable economic recovery Germany saw after WWII.
    I would agree that its still capitalism, there's a world of difference between it and what even left leaning liberals within the mainstream in the US would be in favour of though.

    Its capitalism in so far as its an economy which is still based upon the circulation of money, demand, supply, price mechanisms and price signals, all those staples of market systems but most of its supporters consider those things staples of economy per se and not capitalism per se. I've got suspiscions its still less of a mixed economy than I think makes sense.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's not just corporate negligence the whole country is to blame. We continue to want to have cheap food-like substances to sustain us no matter what the hidden costs may be. There's a serious question as to whether it's all that wise to be pumping nitrogen fertilizer into the ground across the country.
    I'd love it if price mechanisms were allowed to work properly. If the price of gasoline was tied to the true cost, it would be MUCH more expensive. But very few prices in our "free market" economy are based upon the cost to produce the good. Subsidies and taxes distort our economy all over the place.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Yup, ammonium nitrate fertilizer (the kind made at this plant) is very explosive when heated. So an accidental fire that started at the plant ignited the fertilizer, and...

    It's not a very surprising thing to happen at this specific kind of plant.

    Explosion was powerful enough that about half of the town's homes and buildings were damaged. A small town, of course. And rightfully, people have asked, "What about zoning laws? (or common sense, for that matter) Why did they build a school and a nursing home so close to a plant that inherently is susceptible to explosion?"
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #20

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    I don't think it is fair to compare tragedies. Both events are horrible, and people will have family and friends nearer to one event than another.

    I am more worried about the bomber short-term. Presuming we have the right people, even though they caught the younger suspect, and the older one is dead, somehow those two leaned to make bombs. I would like to know how that came about before I know the people on the East Coast are safe.

    Longer term, however, I think this matter is more pervasive. The issues involved are complex.

    I am certainly not ready to indemnify the plant. But, I don't think the facts are being portrayed clearly by the media. The 270 tons of Ammonium Nitrate were disclosed by the plant to the authorities. As @Cimarron mentioned, what about zoning laws? There seems to be regulatory failure as well as other things going on here. This is not just a simple matter of corporate negligence, though I would be surprised if that wasn't part of it.

    I wanted to look into the actual requirements for storage and the chemistry involved (perhaps you know @Cimarron , but I had trouble even finding what the activation barrier was, and the MSDS wasn't entirely clear to me either). My first intuition is that the fire caused the explosion (because the NH4NO3 needs to be detonated). It would then be the precautions that were required to deal with fires and their spread toward the stored ammonium nitrate that would lead to knowing who was at fault, and what happened.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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