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  1. #31
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    Seems like the student from Texas is suffering as a result from potential conflict between school admin and the parents? Sounds like there's more background story and A LOT of ego going on in the (toxic) school environment.

    The student from Chapel Hill suspected to have autism, I feel bad for, too.

    Shows how ethics and law don't always coincide. Certain behaviors that are so blatantly unethical can still be legal, and vice versa.

    Power can corrupt. Sad to see how "power trips" can ruin knowledge/learning for students by use of oppression.

  2. #32
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    A little NCLB context: most states have waivers for NCLB now. Texas has requested one that is pending. NCLB has been sort of subsumed by Race to the Top in a lot of ways- RTTT is kind of a competition for federal funding by implementing policies for teacher evaluations and tracking student progress. It's more of a carrot approach than a stick approach, but still more dependent on test scores than I'd prefer.

    Texas still does their own state standards, rather than adopting the new Common Core standards that were developed a couple of years ago and are just starting to be implemented. I was a huge Common Core skeptic until I actually read them. They're very good, IMO, much more holistic and much less ponderous than what they're replacing in most states, and a huge emphasis on reading real literature and thinking critically about it. (In my job I've worked extensively with the standards of about 15 states including Texas, NC, and NY, as well as the Common Core standards which most states are adopting now).

  3. #33
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - fitting into a system does not mean that punishment should be administered sans hearing the other person's side of the story. think of the court system. we don't just throw people in jail do we? now, I'm not advocating we have a long trials for children every time they get punished, that just isn't feasible. what I am saying is that, if a child thinks they don't deserve to be punished, they should be heard out.
    For the record, I just don't find lunch-time detention a very harsh thing. And while it is total shit that she cannot control it, sometimes you just have to deal with things you cannot control. When I was in junior high (6th grade I believe) I actually got my sisters up to get ready for school because I knew *I* would get in trouble if they weren't. I didn't LIKE that they were lazy, but I played the game instead of fussing about it. Because, in the long run, pushing against my parents' rules didn't really help. I could logically approach them, and it didn't work. I could scream, cry, and push. But that didn't work either. The only thing that did was playing the game. Not to say that this is how I always think--but knowing the system you're playing in is important.

    - fitting into a system means cooperation and a reward/punishment system over what you legitimately have responsibility for. responsibilities must be made clear, but they must also be reasonable.
    Must? Almost every system in this world is unreasonable. "Pay 60$ for co-pay to have a doctor look at you for a few moments, and then when you decide you're too broke for that go to the emergency room for free, because we'll just bill insurance companies for it, and then they'll raise the premiums so that you definitely can't afford to bring that co-pay down."

    - children think they're such individuals because they are individuals. albeit, not fully rational individuals yet capable of making their own decisions, but still individuals. the human race, whether child or adult, is not some mass of collective consciousness.
    Maybe we're talking about different environments. I worked in schools a few years, and my father was a bus driver for schools for a long, long time. Two gun related incidents, three times he'd come home with serious bruises and injuries from trying to help prevent fist fights and a bunch of boys ganging up on a little girl, and watching his friends get fired because they wouldn't allow a kid say racial slurs on their bus--No. Kids are not individuals. They don't have rights--those are given to their parents entirely.

    - the child is 6. it is not a 6 year old's responsibility to get themselves to school and someone shouldn't be punished for something that is outside of their responsibility.
    My question is, why is it automatically punishment? Why is there no gray area? The parents could switch to another school, or do other things to help, like approach the school itself about the issue--but instead they just keep allowing the tardy behavior to continue even knowing the policy. If it were me, I'd have shown up to detention and yanked my kid out of there--not cry about the system. Newborns are really difficult.. I'm tired after just caring for my niece for one evening, more less 24/7. But I don't think schools are completely unreasonable when adults come to them with an issue. Usually schools CAN work with someone if they are proactive in their approach. "Look, we have this going on, and we need to find a solution for it. We are doing our best, but this time table is just too strict for a growing family to sustain all the time and I'm not going to see my daughter getting detention for something she didn't even do herself." If the school wasn't willing to work AFTER that, then get the girl a different school.

    - there is a difference between this story and your personal anecdote because you had a choice in the matter; the child does not have control over the parents being late due to a baby (not that I disagreed with your choice. more power to you, whoop his ass! ).
    The parents have a choice to maybe take shifts in caring for the newborn so that one can dedicate their focus on their daughter AND the parents have a choice to refuse to allow their child to sit in detention--the school cannot make their child do that if they intervene. The parents have the child's rights in this case, and the parents chose to allow their daughter to sit in detention. I wouldn't feel bad for making my child late to school--but I also wouldn't just sit there and let her get pushed around.

    But the child HERSELF is what I am talking about. Why is it no one can just say, "Look, you did nothing wrong.. We know that. Rules are rules, and we will try to fix this, so just be patient for now." Why is it automatically this harsh, dramatic punishment to sit out for lunch in detention? I sat in detention every single recess in my final year of elementary school because I was too busy helping with my sisters to do my homework. Is it my fault I never got to play outside because I had to do my homework? No. But the school had a policy for tardy homework that it would be done during recess instead of grades suffering. You just have to let some things roll off your back. I didn't become this depressed, self-loathing, authority-hating brat just because I had to play the game sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    What it is, is training a child who isn't even old enough to reason, to be a corporate shill. This kind of thinking - a child should be punished at the age of 6 because the parents were late, and due to temporary and stressful family circumstances like having a newborn - is representative of the underpinning of all corporate thought that dehumanizes individuals, destroys small communities, and reduces human beings to numbers, kind of like widgets in a factory.
    This is my point entirely though. Isn't there a lesson here that, "Look kid. This school is corrupt--just like any other school you will attend." You have to know that, from an early age. I don't want my kid thinking their school actually cares about them. I want them on the defensive. The parents are the ones that need to be really active in this.. A newborn is completely understandable, and the child isn't going to become a total lump if she's 10 minutes late to her first class EVERY day, more less occasionally.

    They do it because there are kids that meander to classes, parents that don't care as much, etc. And school's are all about numbers and funding. You want free education, that's what you have to deal with in the US. It sucks, plain and simple.

    The problem began with No Child Left Behind. This was an earnest attempt, I think, by Dubya to help improve the school system, but instead of improving actual quality of education, it's just increasing things like conformity, "teaching the test" and so forth. Instead of expanding on subjects in a human or creative way, or even a realistic applicable-to-real-life way, teachers are now more often than not forced to teach children what will be on standardized tests.
    They were going to move to that regardless of if this was passed or not. Tests are easy, inexpensive, and they give quick self-gratification for the people administering it. At least this program had some other benefits--like schools that are total flunk factories being forced to spend 20% of their government aid to provide free tutoring to students that attend those schools.
    Anyone who trusts the public education system entirely without supplementary education and active involvement in the school system itself isn't really getting their child proper education. America just does not educate kids anymore on a public level. Charter schools are on the right track, but they're far and few between.

    Anyone who thinks this is an appropriate punishment for a six year old, I just...I don't even...
    I don't think it is 'appropriate'. I just don't find it punishment. As much as I hate the school system, they have to deal with the worst from both students and parents now-a-days.. and kids who obey get caught up in that system. It is the parents who have the responsibility to put their foot down.

    My sister's school tried to call us up and demand we bring her clothes because they deemed her inappropriate with what she was wearing. She had on a normal-length skirt (mid-thigh area) and a tank top with a shrug. I had to leave my class early, drive all the way over there, to put a boot in their ass and tell them that the next time that they imply that I allow my sister to dress like a harlot will be the last time they deal with me since I'll go straight to the school board. I told them "I just Walked In Here and I saw shorts shorter than that skirt, cleavage showing, and pants sagging below the asses of little boys running around here. Leave my sister alone, we check what she is wearing before she leaves, and I'm not going to have you making fun of her height and using it as a 'safe' weapon to target someone who MIGHT comply instead of trying to deal with a difficult student that you KNOW won't change their clothes."

    It isn't my sister's fault that she had to deal with all of that, but it was my job to be the buffer between her and her school. That's the price we pay for 'free' crap education. She wasn't being punished for having to work through me to get things done--but that was how we had to play the game.

    Telling your child to work through you when things go wrong at school is not severe.. the school doing whatever they think they have to do is also not severe. It just gets worse from here. Studies are showing school system are creating this disobedient, rebellious kids AND the 'bad' neighborhoods they live in. Work through the system, or find a different one.

    I just don't think this is a big deal. This is rather normal. The kid needs to learn to be very adamant about reporting things to her parents, and getting her parents to take active actions on her behalf. They're the ones with her rights right now. Sure, as she gets older, you start teaching her how to transfer those rights into her own hands, but for now? Nod your head, and then report it straight to me, and I'll put a boot in someone's ass so that you don't have to nod your head anymore.

    I don't see how this is news.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    1. Learn to despise authority (in this case, the school).
    2. Learn to not trust authority (in this case, the parents).
    3. Learn to blame themselves for things they have no control over (depression and self-deprecation).
    But she's 6!! Is she really going to be depressed because she ate lunch by herself?! I could get her to dislike authority a little bit... but the RIGHT kind. She isn't going to dislike the authority of her parents.. And yeah, she's going to get a little emo, but she'll get over it. She won't remember this as a traumatizing event.

    I taught my sister that some people care... but some adults just don't care. They just get stuck in this unhealthy, unhappy life, and they will drag anyone down. I told her to be respectful, smile in their face, whatever it took, and then report immediately to me. "One day, you'll turn 17, and you'll be a legal adult in Texas, and you can look them in the eye with all the respect you were taught to have for adults, and politely tell them that they're being unreasonable and that you just will not stand for that. But, for right now, you're 15, and they'll use that to stomp all over you. The way we fix that, for now, is work through me.. because no one is going to tell you to do something absurd for no reason."

    It is rampant in public schools, I have stories upon stories that lead into other stories about how often I had to be the buffer between authoritative schools trying to deal with kids thinking they're gangsters and bad asses and my sister trying to skirt through a day.

    This really isn't about the child. This is about the school wanting to maintain discipline and have its rules followed, and so it's essentially using the child as the scapegoat to get the parents to obey. This is even clearly evidence in the text part of the news story:
    This is the matter that's really at the heart of it. The parents should be the ones bucking all over the place like a bull. The article made it sound like "This poor kid :c :c and all the injustice!" But the kid is fine. Someone's just got to tell her, "You did nothing wrong. Sometimes rules try to do too much and some people get caught in them. Just remember you did nothing wrong, and you just keep on truckin' kid. Here's some ice cream." and all is well in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    Seems like the student from Texas is suffering as a result from potential conflict between school admin and the parents? Sounds like there's more background story and A LOT of ego going on in the (toxic) school environment.
    Most school in Texas are toxic. Just the way it is. The only people I really see to blame are the parents. I could blame the schools, but they have enough guilt already. They're money-hungry robots long devoid of really desiring education. That's how it works--schools do stuff, and parents either allow it to happen or they make a big enough fuss to make them tear it down.

    The student from Chapel Hill suspected to have autism, I feel bad for, too.
    That one does suck.
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  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But she's 6!! Is she really going to be depressed because she ate lunch by herself?!
    Have you ever had kids?

    She COULD get depressed for many reasons. We actually had two of our three children show signs of major depression at 5-6 years old and we had to see some counselors just to make sure they were okay. One was because one of our kids was blaming himself for things that weren't his fault because he was just too thoughtful and anxious about making mistakes; the other was because he was extroverted but the expectations of an introverted family were repressing him to the point he became melancholy and lifeless, so we had to change the environment for him.

    In this situation, a child could be depressed because she is being blamed for something her parents have been doing over and over, and she has no control over it; or she wants to please authority but authority is punishing her unfairly (some kids have a HUGE sense of justice even that young)... and, well, do I REALLY need to come up with many other examples of things that actually do happen (and that I have seen happen), or are you imaginative and fair enough to volunteer some on your own?

    I could get her to dislike authority a little bit... but the RIGHT kind. She isn't going to dislike the authority of her parents.. And yeah, she's going to get a little emo, but she'll get over it. She won't remember this as a traumatizing event.
    Realistically, you don't really know shit about what she will and will not do. She might be fine. She might not. (I could comment better if I could see the video, but I'm at work.)

    In any case, be a little more open, won't you?

    I taught my sister that some people care... but some adults just don't care. They just get stuck in this unhealthy, unhappy life, and they will drag anyone down. I told her to be respectful, smile in their face, whatever it took, and then report immediately to me. "One day, you'll turn 17, and you'll be a legal adult in Texas, and you can look them in the eye with all the respect you were taught to have for adults, and politely tell them that they're being unreasonable and that you just will not stand for that. But, for right now, you're 15, and they'll use that to stomp all over you. The way we fix that, for now, is work through me.. because no one is going to tell you to do something absurd for no reason."
    We're talking about six-year-olds who don't have control over their lives in the way a 15-year-old does.

    If we were talking about 15-year-olds, my response would be different.
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  5. #35
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Man, if people are outraged by this discipline, I wonder how they'd like my old principal who told me in 1st grade, "Santa Claus doesn't visit little girls who come to school late as often as you." Who says that to a 6yr old. Hag.




    I do understand the need to implement rules for consistent attendance, but at the same time there are other ways of implementing those that don't involve segregating/shaming a child. I mean it's just being late. Gimme a break. Or really, give them a break. After 'X' amount of late arrivals, perhaps discreet notes home that require the parents' signature would be in order, to inform/remind them of the school's late policy. I mean, when they're that little, they're relying wholly on the parent to get them to where they need to go, so it's the parent this needs to be communicated/emphasized to.

    That said, things like this can, & will happen, no matter what system is in place, because humans are inherently flawed & have lapses in judgement when influenced by mood, etc. You can't always protect yourself or kids from stumbling into these holes. It's important for the parents to sit down with their kids and explain to them how certain things can go awry. They are capable of understanding these concepts, but it seems like some parents don't give their young ones that amount of credit.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
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  6. #36
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    This is wrong, full stop.

    Yes, some times we have to deal with things we cannot control. That does not justify this, nor make it ok.

    If their parents stole a car, it would not be acceptable to put the child in jail. Detention may seem like just a really small thing that isn't that bad, but that does not make it ok - it's still the same thing. Being a light punishment doesn't matter one bit in this case.

  7. #37
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Have you ever had kids?
    -_- is this sarcastic?.. I literally said I don't have kids of my own in the OP. I've cared for several, and my sister was cared for my be probably 50% of the time.. but it isn't the same as having a kid of your own.

    She COULD get depressed for many reasons. .... In this situation, a child could be depressed because she is being blamed for something her parents have been doing over and over, and she has no control over it; or she wants to please authority but authority is punishing her unfairly (some kids have a HUGE sense of justice even that young)... and, well, do I REALLY need to come up with many other examples of things that actually do happen (and that I have seen happen), or are you imaginative and fair enough to volunteer some on your own?
    But really? This situation? With parents TELLING her that she didn't do anything wrong, coming to visit her (though I don't know they visited her instead of pulling her out of detention..) and all that jazz? It isn't like the parents are ignoring her feelings, AND authority figures are punishing her for no reason.

    Realistically, you don't really know shit about what she will and will not do. She might be fine. She might not. (I could comment better if I could see the video, but I'm at work.)
    Realistically, if she isn't fine, the parents should pull her out of the school. School systems don't change for the individual, that's part of what's wrong with them. They don't work with the onesies and twosies. Every kid isn't a big deal. Just the majority. Many, but not all, schools are like this.

    In any case, be a little more open, won't you?
    I really just don't see it being a big deal that's news worthy. It's trivial. The parents didn't see a need to go to the school board, or go to the school and work with them, so I don't see why it's such a big deal. If the parents are okay with their kid being in detention, then I'm not going to cry about it.

    We're talking about six-year-olds who don't have control over their lives in the way a 15-year-old does.

    If we were talking about 15-year-olds, my response would be different.
    15 year olds have no more control over their life than a 6 year old. Sure, the parents allow more decisions to be made.. but the kid has no more say over what happens in their school to them, what teachers say to them. My mom flipped her shit when she found out I did a day of ISS because I stood up to a boy saying perverse things to me. My dad explained it to me, and I agreed that even though I felt it was right, there were rules about fighting, so time served was sufficient. I wasn't mad about being in ISS. I didn't feel like justice was crippled. It is all oppressive, you-will-listen-to-me attitude. Good kids get caught up in a system meant to work with 'bad' kids that they are, ironically, encouraging to be bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Man, if people are outraged by this discipline, I wonder how they'd like my old principal who told me in 1st grade, "Santa Claus doesn't visit little girls who come to school late as often as you." Who says that to a 6yr old. Hag.
    This is what I'm talking about. The punishment wasn't severe in and of itself (LUNCH detention? How long does lunch last for kids? 30-40 minutes?)

    I do understand the need to implement rules for consistent attendance, but at the same time there are other ways of implementing those that don't involve segregating/shaming a child. I mean it's just being late. Gimme a break. Or really, give them a break. After 'X' amount of late arrivals, perhaps discreet notes home that require the parents' signature would be in order, to inform/remind them of the school's late policy. I mean, when they're that little, they're relying wholly on the parent to get them to where they need to go, so it's the parent this needs to be communicated/emphasized to.
    And the parents responsibility to remind them of that when the school is being too harsh. Either way, the policy is there. There are counselors there at the school if the student is THAT depressed, and parents that need to serve as a buffer between those adults and their child. That's sort of their job. Like I said, even at the unreasonable school my sister attended, if I ever went in and talked to the counselors and assistant principals, I never NOT got a positive response. When they were not allowing me to act as a guardian for my sister, I talked to the counselor, and explained the situation of my mother and father being sick and that was all it took. Suddenly I had authority to act just like a parent. I didn't get all angry-faced at their policies. I just worked in the system. Everything is flexible under the right circumstances. The schools are not, chances are, going to reach out to the parents individually. They should, but they probably won't. The parents know the situations right as they happen. They're the ones that need to be active.

    That said, things like this can, & will happen, no matter what system is in place, because humans are inherently flawed & have lapses in judgement when influenced by mood, etc. It's important for the parents to sit down with their kids and explain to them how certain things can go awry. They are capable of understanding these concepts, but it seems like some parents don't give their young ones that amount of credit.
    Exactly. Thank you. If the kid is capable of a complex emotion like depression, then it is capable of understanding a complex notion like being caught up in a big rule that has very little wiggle room.
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  8. #38
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And the parents responsibility to remind them of that when the school is being too harsh. Either way, the policy is there. There are counselors there at the school if the student is THAT depressed, and parents that need to serve as a buffer between those adults and their child. That's sort of their job. Like I said, even at the unreasonable school my sister attended, if I ever went in and talked to the counselors and assistant principals, I never NOT got a positive response. When they were not allowing me to act as a guardian for my sister, I talked to the counselor, and explained the situation of my mother and father being sick and that was all it took. Suddenly I had authority to act just like a parent. I didn't get all angry-faced at their policies. I just worked in the system. Everything is flexible under the right circumstances. The schools are not, chances are, going to reach out to the parents individually. They should, but they probably won't. The parents know the situations right as they happen. They're the ones that need to be active.
    Yeah.. while I don't agree with the lunch detention, I think if the parents are being informed/reminded of the late policy directly in real-time as the rules have been violated, it opens up room for parent-school communication that might be highly warranted, depending on the circumstances at home. My mom was by herself, working, and my brother & I had to walk to school (it was literally on the next block) ourselves. Sometimes a 6 & 8 yr-old might get knots in their shoes/trapped in a coat/lose house keys, and lose time. We moved a lot when I was young, and when the schools were properly informed of our situation (like in 3rd/4th grade when my father was dying/had died)- we weren't exempted from rules, necessarily, but they did typically take our family into consideration when dealing with us. Sometimes if a parent's hands are full, just getting by, they may not remember to let the school know.

    But contact from the school gives them this opportunity to engage, so I highly support notes, phonecalls, and conferences over isolated punishments that really don't accomplish much in the longterm, and potentially leave the school (where your kid spends many hours of his/her life) blind to any possibly serious problems going on with the student that should be acknowledged. I mean, no matter what, mistakes will be made, but if dealt with properly, they can serve as a beneficial learning tool/growing experience for the young mind. I agree that parents need to be the most proactive parties, but I hold the school responsible for keeping communication a 2-way street, as well.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
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  9. #39
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    They might not be punishing her for no reason, but they are punishing her specifically for no reason.
    i.e. the punishment is misdirected. It's simply not proper or ethical.

    This is not an acceptable practice.

    Furthermore, non-chronic tardiness should not be 'criminalized'. It's a poor attitude to have. Having a lunch study to make up lost material is perfectly acceptable and in itself might have a deterring effect.

    There's no excuse for having it be anything but "We understand that you didn't intend to be late, but you still have to make up some time."

  10. #40
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Punishing a little kid for something a parent did. By all means, teach the child to recognize incompetence at an early age.

    *roots for 6-year-old *

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