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  1. #21
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    I'm sorry, but I just have to laugh one more time at the crux of your argument being words like "fair" "efficient" "maximize their potential" and "immediately deployable."

    And you saying you're obviously not an ISTJ.

    Oh my gosh you are loads of fun.

  2. #22
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    Wait ...also see "performing duties."

    I really must go now, though, or I'm going to get arrested by the mods.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Oh my gosh you are loads of fun.

    I let my true self off the leash, I thought you'd enjoy it.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    The kid is 6 and has no real power to change the situation.

    Let's discuss cause->effect for a moment. When you punish people who don't actually have control over the situation, they either:
    1. Learn to despise authority (in this case, the school).
    2. Learn to not trust authority (in this case, the parents).
    3. Learn to blame themselves for things they have no control over (depression and self-deprecation).

    This really isn't about the child. This is about the school wanting to maintain discipline and have its rules followed, and so it's essentially using the child as the scapegoat to get the parents to obey. This is even clearly evidence in the text part of the news story:

    When Brooke Loeffler's parents made her late to her San Antonio-area school several times, it was the student who took the fall.

    Brooke is 6 years old.

    The Texas kindergartner, who attends Olympia Elementary School, spent two days in classroom detention during lunch hour, by herself, facing a wall, as the school’s policy dictates.

    Although Brooke received the punishment, it was her dad who felt bad. He even sat with Brooke during one of her lunchtime detentions.

    "It was my responsibility to get her ready and get her to school," her father told KENS-TV. He added, "I failed that responsibility a couple of times.”
    Sounds like the school's punishment of Brooke is impacting the only people who really have control over this situation: The parents. The article even goes in that direction, suggesting punishing the parents and not the kid.

    If you want to teach a child cause->effect, you teach them that within the scope of areas of life in which they have power to control the outcome. You don't do it in a situation where they don't have a realistic means by which to control outcome. If you do, you simply embitter or discourage them; they either write-off the system as corrupt, blame themselves, give up, or learn to not trust anyone. A child might not be able to think through it and articulate those outcomes, but you will see them acting it out.

    It would be different if the child was able to get up and get on a bus (so they could control getting to the bus on time) or were old enough to drive and thus leave on time.

    Anyway, let's not get confusd on "who is being taught a lesson about life here." The school is trying to teach the parents a lesson by punishing their daughter. And they're probably not going to stop, since tardiness has dropped by such a huge amount; apparently lots of parents don't want their children to be punished for the mistakes THEY'VE made. That's about the only positive part of the anecdote... parents not wanting to see their kids pay for THEIR mistakes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #25
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    Whether or not it's a good rule or a bad rule depends on what kind of education you are providing. It seems to me that if one is trying to impart education libertas, that is a liberal education suitable for free men and women, then you would want to not just teach students about justice, but have rules that are just. If you are trying to impart education servus, suitable for slaves, then as the OP remarks you would want the children to become familiar with a system that is not fair, but to which they must conform nonetheless.
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  6. #26
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think this really sucks and I'd be all up in the school's face about it and probably consider finding a different school for my kid. I don't, however, think it's an indictment of all public schools. They're not all uniform, so you really can't say that having observed the schools in one area gives you insight into the system as a whole- it varies a lot by state, district, school, and teacher. Some schools REALLY SUCK and some are various degrees of tolerable-to-good. So far (except for More at 4 pre-K) we've always made use of the charter schools in our area, which are public and either terrible or awesome. (We chose the awesome ones.) My daughter goes to HS next year and we've decided on the regular public high school in our district, which has impressed me. I was not at all impressed with the schools in Chapel Hill which is right up the road from us, which are supposed to be some of the best in the nation. They seem like a huge pressure-cooker for kids. If that's what "best" means, no thanks.

  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Whether or not it's a good rule or a bad rule depends on what kind of education you are providing. It seems to me that if one is trying to impart education libertas, that is a liberal education suitable for free men and women, then you would want to not just teach students about justice, but have rules that our just. If you are trying to impart education servus, suitable for slaves, then as the OP remarks you would want the children to become familiar with a system that is not fair, but to which they must conform nonetheless.
    This reminds me of a story. The little girl I used to nanny got in trouble for "questioning authority" a lot in elementary school (and this was in those supposedly awesome Chapel Hill schools). She was not extremely tactful about her authority-questioning, but she was never rude if you knew her and how she communicated (several of her more compassionate teachers approached her parents about having her assessed for autism rather than just deciding she was a disrespectful brat, but her parents were insulted and never pursued the assessment).

    One time, she had asked her teacher about something she thought was unfair (I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something very benign, like using a particular playground for recess instead of the one her class was assigned to use). Teacher said no. So she wrote a very polite letter to the principal laying out a very logical case for whatever it was she was asking for. Her teacher was FURIOUS- she called a meeting with the girl's parents about how she had "gone over my head" to the principal, and the girl ended up with a couple days of detention for her peaceful protest.

    The punchline is, at the very same time all this was going on, the class was studying the constitution, specifically the first amendment and how people had used it to peacefully protest government policy. BA-DUM TSCH!

  8. #28
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think this really sucks and I'd be all up in the school's face about it and probably consider finding a different school for my kid. I don't, however, think it's an indictment of all public schools. They're not all uniform, so you really can't say that having observed the schools in one area gives you insight into the system as a whole- it varies a lot by state, district, school, and teacher. Some schools REALLY SUCK and some are various degrees of tolerable-to-good. So far (except for More at 4 pre-K) we've always made use of the charter schools in our area, which are public and either terrible or awesome. (We chose the awesome ones.) My daughter goes to HS next year and we've decided on the regular public high school in our district, which has impressed me. I was not at all impressed with the schools in Chapel Hill which is right up the road from us, which are supposed to be some of the best in the nation. They seem like a huge pressure-cooker for kids. If that's what "best" means, no thanks.
    I'm glad not all schools are like that. It gives me faith.

    One of the schools my kids went to would definitely do something like that. The others I could imagine going either way.

    I don't know for sure but I'm under the impression that attendance is one of the things schools are evaluated on for NCLB. In my school district, we have a couple of schools that pass pretty easily, a few that do not have a hope in hell of ever passing, and several that are borderline.

    The school where they would punish a child for being late was one with a very ambitious principle who came into a poor school with the attitude that she was the new sheriff in town and was going to clean up Dodge and it wasn't working out quite the way she thought it would. She did eventually get the school to pass, but it took a few years after my kids had already left there.

    I can't believe we still have NCLB. It's so destructive.
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  9. #29
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This reminds me of a story. The little girl I used to nanny got in trouble for "questioning authority" a lot in elementary school (and this was in those supposedly awesome Chapel Hill schools). She was not extremely tactful about her authority-questioning, but she was never rude if you knew her and how she communicated (several of her more compassionate teachers approached her parents about having her assessed for autism rather than just deciding she was a disrespectful brat, but her parents were insulted and never pursued the assessment).

    One time, she had asked her teacher about something she thought was unfair (I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something very benign, like using a particular playground for recess instead of the one her class was assigned to use). Teacher said no. So she wrote a very polite letter to the principal laying out a very logical case for whatever it was she was asking for. Her teacher was FURIOUS- she called a meeting with the girl's parents about how she had "gone over my head" to the principal, and the girl ended up with a couple days of detention for her peaceful protest.

    The punchline is, at the very same time all this was going on, the class was studying the constitution, specifically the first amendment and how people had used it to peacefully protest government policy. BA-DUM TSCH!
    Awesome. It amazes me what thin egos people can have. How do you get upset with a child going over your head on an issue as silly as where you have recess? I can't imagine what she would be like if she had to spend all of her time with adults she couldn't lord over.
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  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    One time, she had asked her teacher about something she thought was unfair (I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something very benign, like using a particular playground for recess instead of the one her class was assigned to use). Teacher said no. So she wrote a very polite letter to the principal laying out a very logical case for whatever it was she was asking for. Her teacher was FURIOUS- she called a meeting with the girl's parents about how she had "gone over my head" to the principal, and the girl ended up with a couple days of detention for her peaceful protest.

    The punchline is, at the very same time all this was going on, the class was studying the constitution, specifically the first amendment and how people had used it to peacefully protest government policy. BA-DUM TSCH!
    Oh, the irony!

    I hope she keeps writing letters and doesn't let that incident discourage her.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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