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  1. #11
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...2506.html?vp=1

    So basically, the summary goes:
    - Parents have new born baby.
    - Parents are late getting kid to school.
    - Kid gets detention during lunch for being late to school.

    So the video and parents are all " :c but SHE didn't do anything wrong, so she doesn't understand why she is being punished."

    I think it's not really so bad. It's an important lesson to know that sometimes you just have to work within the system. It's mass punishment regardless of the reason--and that's pretty common. Kids think they're such individuals, like as long as they stay in their lane never pay attention to everything around them that they'll be fine somehow. It's not so bad to learn early on to let things roll off your back occasionally. "No, dear, you didn't do anything wrong. But we were still tardy. So, go through the motions, and I'll do something special for you at home since it was my fault." They can't change the system that's keeping kids in school just because parents are having trouble adjusting.

    When I was in high school, my father ripped the school a new one because I came home and reported I was in in school suspension for a day because I got into a fight with a boy. He nearly broke my nose with a binder when I mouthed off to him for saying something inappropriate to me. He pushed me a bit, and I pushed back enough for him to fall into a desk, so he threw a binder at my face and it hit pretty hard. I started crying like a little girl because it sucks to get hit in the nose, and then *I* got put into in school suspension for starting the fight. My dad was upset that the boy was getting 1 day of in school suspension and I had 3 to go. He fixed that at the school level, then came home to talk to me. He told me, "You started a fight, you should have reported that to the teacher. But I am glad you stood up for yourself, so don't take that day as punishment. Sometimes you have to put up with things you don't like because you decided to do something that felt right. There's not always rewards for the right thing."

    Am I wrong in thinking that? Is 6 a little harsh to be teaching things like that and I'm just not aware of it because I'm not really a parent? I really don't know why this made news..
    If you put a carriage in front of the horse, the carriage does not go anywhere. Of course you can whip the horse. And then someone is prone to ask if it is a little harsh to whip the horse.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - fitting into a system does not mean that punishment should be administered sans hearing the other person's side of the story. think of the court system. we don't just throw people in jail do we? now, I'm not advocating we have a long trials for children every time they get punished, that just isn't feasible. what I am saying is that, if a child thinks they don't deserve to be punished, they should be heard out.
    - fitting into a system means cooperation and a reward/punishment system over what you legitimately have responsibility for. responsibilities must be made clear, but they must also be reasonable.
    - children think they're such individuals because they are individuals. albeit, not fully rational individuals yet capable of making their own decisions, but still individuals. the human race, whether child or adult, is not some mass of collective consciousness.
    - the child is 6. it is not a 6 year old's responsibility to get themselves to school and someone shouldn't be punished for something that is outside of their responsibility.
    - such a system is authoritarian rather than authoritative in nature and encourages unquestioning obedience rather than fostering healthy communication, teaching children why something is wrong and the beginnings of independent reasoning
    - there is a difference between this story and your personal anecdote because you had a choice in the matter; the child does not have control over the parents being late due to a baby (not that I disagreed with your choice. more power to you, whoop his ass! ).



    yes


    yes


    despite not agreeing with your opinion, I find this a bit trivial as well. it's hardly news compared to things like, say, recent bombings and shootings.
    @Marmotini

    basically this
    What it is, is training a child who isn't even old enough to reason, to be a corporate shill. This kind of thinking - a child should be punished at the age of 6 because the parents were late, and due to temporary and stressful family circumstances like having a newborn - is representative of the underpinning of all corporate thought that dehumanizes individuals, destroys small communities, and reduces human beings to numbers, kind of like widgets in a factory.

    The problem began with No Child Left Behind. This was an earnest attempt, I think, by Dubya to help improve the school system, but instead of improving actual quality of education, it's just increasing things like conformity, "teaching the test" and so forth. Instead of expanding on subjects in a human or creative way, or even a realistic applicable-to-real-life way, teachers are now more often than not forced to teach children what will be on standardized tests.

    A recent academic article that I read stated that children actually appear to be LESS creative than they were ten years ago and there's a possibility that it's due to the present state of the school system, which isn't even "Si common sense" anymore or "Se practical knowledge" but just complete Te authoritarian bullshit.

    Anyone who thinks this is an appropriate punishment for a six year old, I just...I don't even...

    This is beyond authoritarian. This is authoritarian taken to the level of unreasonable and insane. If there aren't logical steps justifying the punishment, actually teaching the child a valuable lesson (in this case it won't, because the child is 6 and not 12 or 15, so in no way responsible for getting to school or to changing class periods on his or her own).

    Just vomit. Spew. Really.

    Want to see epidemic numbers of children dropping out of high school? That's my latest prediction if this shit doesn't change in the next few years, if it lasts long enough to affect an entire generation of children for their entire schooling experience.

  3. #13
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
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    The problem with a system that works is that there is always going to have to be someone who is innocent and gets screwed over by it. The fact that its helped reduce tardiness doesn't change the fact that a SIX YEAR OLD CHILD is being punished for doing nothing wrong.

    When I was a kid, I was generally well behaved in schools. But when teachers started pushing their weight around and in my face, I simply told them no. If I was given detention for something I didn't do, I simply didn't go. If a teacher started screaming at me for an action I didn't commit, I simply told them I didn't do it, and walked out of the class if they became verbally violent / insulting. If they didn't like it, that was their issue. Nobody ever punished me for standing my ground.

    Obviously a six year old child isn't going to be mature enough to act or think that way, which is exactly why the parents should have put their foot down with the school. The complete lack of regard or empathy for their circumstances is deplorable.

    Unfortunately, this is a consistent thing in modern American society.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    What it is, is training a child who isn't even old enough to reason, to be a corporate shill. This kind of thinking - a child should be punished at the age of 6 because the parents were late, and due to temporary and stressful family circumstances like having a newborn - is representative of the underpinning of all corporate thought that dehumanizes individuals, destroys small communities, and reduces human beings to numbers, kind of like widgets in a factory.
    This.

    I am by no means an expert, but I think it is important to teach young children the relationship between cause and effect. It helps them learn to make decisions using the information available to them and logic. When you divorce actions from consequences or consequences from actions, you are teaching them that there is no relationship between their actions and the outcomes they experience.

    When you intentionally cause a child to experience harsh negative consequences for something the child has no control over, you chip away at their understanding of personal responsibility rather than enhancing it.

    You are teaching them, instead, that they can be bullied by those with more power than they have and, perhaps, teaching them that they, in turn, can bully others with less power than they have.

    It's bad behavioral conditioning and it teaches children the wrong things, IMO.
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  5. #15
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    What it is, is training a child who isn't even old enough to reason, to be a corporate shill. This kind of thinking - a child should be punished at the age of 6 because the parents were late, and due to temporary and stressful family circumstances like having a newborn - is representative of the underpinning of all corporate thought that dehumanizes individuals, destroys small communities, and reduces human beings to numbers, kind of like widgets in a factory.
    - I'm strongly capitalist, but I agree with this. there is something to be said for life balance and, while a reasonable degree of timeliness is required in the fast paced world of business, shit happens and exceptions like this need to be written into the rules

    The problem began with No Child Left Behind. This was an earnest attempt, I think, by Dubya to help improve the school system, but instead of improving actual quality of education, it's just increasing things like conformity, "teaching the test" and so forth. Instead of expanding on subjects in a human or creative way, or even a realistic applicable-to-real-life way, teachers are now more often than not forced to teach children what will be on standardized tests.
    A recent academic article that I read stated that children actually appear to be LESS creative than they were ten years ago and there's a possibility that it's due to the present state of the school system, which isn't even "Si common sense" anymore or "Se practical knowledge" but just complete Te authoritarian bullshit.
    exactly. there are things that need to be done on small scales and/or a case by case basis. education is one of them, administering punishment is another. particularly in the case of children. children are not designed to do well in excessively formal environments.

    Anyone who thinks this is an appropriate punishment for a six year old, I just...I don't even...
    This is beyond authoritarian. This is authoritarian taken to the level of unreasonable and insane. If there aren't logical steps justifying the punishment, actually teaching the child a valuable lesson (in this case it won't, because the child is 6 and not 12 or 15, so in no way responsible for getting to school or to changing class periods on his or her own).
    Just vomit. Spew. Really.
    Want to see epidemic numbers of children dropping out of high school? That's my latest prediction if this shit doesn't change in the next few years, if it lasts long enough to affect an entire generation of children for their entire schooling experience.
    basically this. there is a difference between "you do what I say without question" and "at the end of the day, I make the rules, but I will consider your input". bottom line is, yes, teachers in 98% of situations know better than students, but it's hypocritical to ask anyone to respect you when you won't listen to them. thinking it is acceptable to ignore/not listen to someone who is affected by your decision making is one of the most disrespectful things I can think of. I don't care if the person is 2 or 52.

    that brings me to another point. this method of discipline gives children a skewed view of both respect and authority. neither respect nor authority mean "we need to follow the rules without question". authority is about acknowledging someone's rightful decision making power, respect is adhering to a person's rights and speaking in a way that is not derogatory. neither have to do with the kind of unquestioned obedience pushed by such authoritarian systems of punishment.
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  6. #16
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    Only one point to argue...and actually I think we agree that a 6 year old is still learning a lot of other things...The timeliness of business is not one of them. In fact, more and more people can work from home or have flexible schedules now, and while I agree that approximate starting times are important...there are entire cultures that thrive on approximate rather than exact starting times.

    Even if you have a corporate attitude of being five minutes early every day, just remember that time is an artificial construct, and it wasn't until about 1900 that clocks were even all attuned to one another so precisely, and it was because of train transportation times.

    Just as a aside @Elfboy, I thought that you agreed with me that capitalism and corporatism are not the same thing.

    I think that children do need to be socialized to respect and live with others, to not be so spoiled or self-absorbed that they cannot even function in society as young adults (and that can happen, and some people say it is happening with some of the younger members of Gen Y).

    On the other hand, going to the other extreme, by enforcing a kind of irrational authoritarianism that doesn't even really edify the children, isn't much better, it creates rebellion, and also ostracism of for example, children who may have family problems.

    This family just has a newborn. What about the poor six year old that has a terminally ill or alcoholic parent. So does that kid also perpetually get sent to detention if he or she is late, and just feel like a freak, not understanding why life is punishing them wherever they go and perhaps internalizing the idea that they deserve it for some unknown reason, because they are less than others?

    I can't believe that some of these teachers even passed their Developmental Psychology classes, but people often say that elementary school teachers are the dummies of all the teachers. I don't agree with that, of course, one of my exes, his mom taught 3rd grade and she had gone to law school but couldn't pass the bar exam. So she was just as educated as a high school or junior college teacher/assistant professor.

  7. #17
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @Marmotini
    I do agree that capitalism and corporatism are not the same thing; however, my statement applies to the business world in general, which is fast paced and necessitates timeliness. similar to what you were saying, my point was that time is an artificial construct that serves a purpose, not an ends. thus, natural life events that disrupt artificial schedules need to be accounted for. the world outside the world of business is rarely so organized and predictable and, frankly, shit happens.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    This.

    I am by no means an expert, but I think it is important to teach young children the relationship between cause and effect. It helps them learn to make decisions using the information available to them and logic. When you divorce actions from consequences or consequences from actions, you are teaching them that there is no relationship between their actions and the outcomes they experience.

    When you intentionally cause a child to experience harsh negative consequences for something the child has no control over, you chip away at their understanding of personal responsibility rather than enhancing it.

    You are teaching them, instead, that they can be bullied by those with more power than they have and, perhaps, teaching them that they, in turn, can bully others with less power than they have.

    It's bad behavioral conditioning and it teaches children the wrong things
    , IMO.
    Yes.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Seriously this is almost IRRESISTIBLE as a debate unless you're a complete troll, why wouldn't you be an ISTJ if you imagine that things like artificial, changing constructs like the present state of the current school system are "coming to terms with the universe" and you actually feel a smug sense of being GLAD THAT THE PARENTS ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY since they had a new born baby and got their 6 year old to school late. I mean, how dare them.

    Could you scream Si/Te more? No please. Please scream Si more.

    Look, to make a long story short (it's late) ...the school system hasn't always been like this. It's foul. It's broken. Even old teachers will tell you that the school system is a joke compared to what it once was.

    I'll certainly take this up with you more later, but I really should relax and try to sleep.

    I don't understand how it could be a debate when I've already conceded the fact that I am likely an ISTJ, or at very least, mulled the possibility over more than once. The notion has been shot down with fair swiftness whenever brought up publicly, but I'm glad you've taken note as well.


    I feel there is a grand scope of structure you are perhaps failing to acknowledge when you speak of perceiving time ridigly being 'inhumane' or unrealistic. For example, as a teacher, it is unfair to be expected to have to double over your effort to ensure children who miss time in your class are on the same page with everyone else. It is unfair to students who are on time to be subject to this lull in progress, and it is unfair to the child that is late for being ostracized from their peers as being a habitual delinquent, particularly for something beyond their control. It is inefficient for all parties involved to have a legion of students that simply cannot get to school on time, and I really have only scratched the surface of potentials involved with not viewing time as a rigid entity to be enforced structurally.

    I am glad they are working to enact a system that places more emphasis on a parent's duty to their child. In lieu of such policy however, the measures in place are both objectively effective and (most importantly) an immediately deployable structure. I would imagine finding a system capable of such swift results and ease of operation difficult to conjure, should you desire to detract emphasis away from the bystanding child and levy it against the adults responsible - but what would you do? Place parents in detention, as if they would subject themselves to such a retention of their time? Would you fine them? Fining would perhaps be effective, but I am not much a fan of levying taxes against a population for the advantage of breaking policy - apart from it being overly dramatic.

    Perhaps demonstrating to the child at hand that what is happening is unsatisfactory really is the most effective solution, so that the child actually encourages their parents to act in a responsible matter and perform the duties required by law of them. I can almost imagine the little girl in the video next time standing in the kitchen with her backpack on, telling her parents "Mom, we have to go NOW or I'm gonna be late again!"


    Now, in regards to my smugness of being glad the parents are taking a share of responsibility, yes. I was fully expecting to enter that article and read the parents were one hundred percent up in arms about the unjust punishment ascribed to their child. It was a refreshing change to read this

    "It was my responsibility to get her ready and get her to school," her father told KENS-TV. He added, "I failed that responsibility a couple of times.”
    instead of "We have a new baby, it isn't our fault!" as would be wholly expected.


    You like to talk a lot about the ills of America, so I'll go on a similar tirade. There is a large air of irresponsibility being cultivated here. I sense many fingers being pointed around, wanting to maximize their sense of individuality while minimizing their input to anything grander than they. They want money, a place to sleep, enough to eat - but God be damned if they are going to integrate into social structure and become a cog of the corporate machine, owing allegiance to anything apart from themselves. And that's a good mentality. This is where business owners and economic growth come into play.

    The problem is is that many of these people will likely never desire to start a business (and maybe even then so, with much irony) yet the mentality will persist. Instead of devising ways to productively maximize their potential within the confines of their given environment they will dwell on their shackles. These people can be found lurking the comments section of Illumanti conspiracy videos of YouTube, and maybe drum circles outside the college campus cafeteria (though not here in Texas - Texas liberals are CRAZY production-minded individuals). I will listen to their anti-capitalistic rants, their failure at emotion-driven self-taught economics, politics, and sociology. And I will weep inside, every time.

    Though again, I am simply an SJ drone that is perfectly capable and happy crafting widgets in a factory for twenty-six thousand a year until the day I die, so experience may vary.


    I forgot to expound on my thoughts of coming to terms with things like social structure and SJ-construed type things. This is already possibly the longest post I've ever crafted here, so I shall await another train of thought to pass by.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I don't understand how it could be a debate when I've already conceded the fact that I am likely an ISTJ, or at very least, mulled the possibility over more than once. The notion has been shot down with fair swiftness whenever brought up publicly, but I'm glad you've taken note as well.


    I feel there is a grand scope of structure you are perhaps failing to acknowledge when you speak of perceiving time ridigly being 'inhumane' or unrealistic. For example, as a teacher, it is unfair to be expected to have to double over your effort to ensure children who miss time in your class are on the same page with everyone else. It is unfair to students who are on time to be subject to this lull in progress, and it is unfair to the child that is late for being ostracized from their peers as being a habitual delinquent, particularly for something beyond their control. It is inefficient for all parties involved to have a legion of students that simply cannot get to school on time, and I really have only scratched the surface of potentials involved with not viewing time as a rigid entity to be enforced structurally.

    I am glad they are working to enact a system that places more emphasis on a parent's duty to their child. In lieu of such policy however, the measures in place are both objectively effective and (most importantly) an immediately deployable structure. I would imagine finding a system capable of such swift results and ease of operation difficult to conjure, should you desire to detract emphasis away from the bystanding child and levy it against the adults responsible - but what would you do? Place parents in detention, as if they would subject themselves to such a retention of their time? Would you fine them? Fining would perhaps be effective, but I am not much a fan of levying taxes against a population for the advantage of breaking policy - apart from it being overly dramatic.

    Perhaps demonstrating to the child at hand that what is happening is unsatisfactory really is the most effective solution, so that the child actually encourages their parents to act in a responsible matter and perform the duties required by law of them. I can almost imagine the little girl in the video next time standing in the kitchen with her backpack on, telling her parents "Mom, we have to go NOW or I'm gonna be late again!"


    Now, in regards to my smugness of being glad the parents are taking a share of responsibility, yes. I was fully expecting to enter that article and read the parents were one hundred percent up in arms about the unjust punishment ascribed to their child. It was a refreshing change to read this


    instead of "We have a new baby, it isn't our fault!" as would be wholly expected.


    You like to talk a lot about the ills of America, so I'll go on a similar tirade. There is a large air of irresponsibility being cultivated here. I sense many fingers being pointed around, wanting to maximize their sense of individuality while minimizing their input to anything grander than they. They want money, a place to sleep, enough to eat - but God be damned if they are going to integrate into social structure and become a cog of the corporate machine, owing allegiance to anything apart from themselves. And that's a good mentality. This is where business owners and economic growth come into play.

    The problem is is that many of these people will likely never desire to start a business (and maybe even then so, with much irony) yet the mentality will persist. Instead of devising ways to productively maximize their potential within the confines of their given environment they will dwell on their shackles. These people can be found lurking the comments section of Illumanti conspiracy videos of YouTube, and maybe drum circles outside the college campus cafeteria (though not here in Texas - Texas liberals are CRAZY production-minded individuals). I will listen to their anti-capitalistic rants, their failure at emotion-driven self-taught economics, politics, and sociology. And I will weep inside, every time.

    Though again, I am simply an SJ drone that is perfectly capable and happy crafting widgets in a factory for twenty-six thousand a year until the day I die, so experience may vary.


    I forgot to expound on my thoughts of coming to terms with things like social structure and SJ-construed type things. This is already possibly the longest post I've ever crafted here, so I shall await another train of thought to pass by.
    You know, a lot of ISTJs are doctors and lawyers. Teh can be teh smartz. Your post fails to convince me that you aren't an ISTJ.

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