User Tag List

First 303839404142 Last

Results 391 to 400 of 431

  1. #391
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    He didn't even live in Chechnya, he was just ethnically Chechen and was in medical school. In many ways the younger one actually seems privileged. They were in the U.S. and one was in med school, the other forced his wife to work 80 hours a week while he stayed home, and collected welfare.
    You don't have to live in the "old country" to be affected by events there, especially when a significant part of your family (i.e. parents) still live there. The brothers may have had a good, even privileged life in the U.S., but could still feel outrage about events in Chechnya, especially if some of their relatives were directly affected. Barring such a direct connection, it is possible for someone in their situation to romanticise the struggle as they become old enough to learn about it and their family and cultural origins. I think teens are particularly susceptible to this. Again, none of this excuses their actions, but it does explain how and why they could be motivated by the Chechen struggle while living well-removed from it in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    We can't erase colonialism, and I also talk about being part ethnically Cherokee and Shawnee, but yes, some cultures are better than others. I am sorry, but they are. There are stronger, more successful, more educated cultures who should not be dragged down by cultures of sexism and violence. I find the U.S. to be an exception anyway, I don't put the U.S. in the same category as Europe, which is why I defend European nationalism much more than in the U.S.
    I did not claim that all cultures were equally good. I wrote instead that no one can assume their culture is automatically better than someone else's. The difference lies in that automatic assumption. If you consider your own culture better than another, it should be because you have made the effort to understand the other culture, and are thus able to make a meaningful comparison based on the facts and your personal values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Eat your food, listen to your music, wear your clothes, maintain your rich cultural history, fine, but people need to stop things like forcing women to sit in the back of a lecture hall from happening.
    This is a start at answering the question I posted earlier. Some people think, however, that if your clothes involve headscarves/veils, you are pushing your way on those around you. This is the line I was trying to identify: where is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    To tell the truth, for me in this debate the question is not about moral or ethics. It's about being honest and describing exactly what my experience was when I used to live there, even if I have to recognize that it can only be a very subjective one (it cannot be otherwise: it's the very definition of subjectivity).

    If there is a conflict or a cognitive dissonance I perceive, it has to be between the ignorant prejudices I read here and my actual, real-life experience which tells me a totally different story. But whatever I do, I chose to be honest. Like Husserl once said I chose to do the epoche, I suspend my judgment and see what happens next.
    It isn't about who someone is - Muslim, Russian, Mexican, even Neo-Nazi - it is about what he or she does. This is where we must suspend judgment until we can apply it to actual people and what they really do. If someone is a responsible citizen, a good neighbor, and generally peaceable person, the rest is incidental and the crimes of those who share their religion or culture should not be held against them. Similarly, if someone is killing, destroying, stealing, or otherwise doing harm to others, their actions should not be tolerated, regardless of who they are. The most sane way to address these terrorist incidents is as the crimes they are, first and foremost.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #392
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You don't have to live in the "old country" to be affected by events there, especially when a significant part of your family (i.e. parents) still live there. The brothers may have had a good, even privileged life in the U.S., but could still feel outrage about events in Chechnya, especially if some of their relatives were directly affected. Barring such a direct connection, it is possible for someone in their situation to romanticise the struggle as they become old enough to learn about it and their family and cultural origins. I think teens are particularly susceptible to this. Again, none of this excuses their actions, but it does explain how and why they could be motivated by the Chechen struggle while living well-removed from it in the U.S.
    If they felt outrage about Chechnya, then I would think they would bomb Russia, not the U.S. He seemed to be trying to make the argument that they were scarred by some terrible life, but it's been shown again and again that a lot of terrorists are educated people, even professional people; one theory is that they feel like they belong to neither culture fully so in some cases embrace extremism as a way of tying themselves back to the old culture, which you can never completely be back in as an educated person who lives outside of it, I know this on a much smaller, teeny-tinier scale being someone who has spent most of her adult life in major cities while all of my relatives remain in the South, especially having older relatives who were pretty much mountain people and the effect this had on my family, I can relate to thinking you're too good for the old culture but not good enough for the new culture, and the extremist views are a way of romantically tying yourself back to the old culture.

    So it's killing people out of romanticism, in a way, in order to remove the sense of alienation of never really ever being able to "go back" and be like the people where you came from.

    I don't know, I relate to and understand what they're saying (I also relate to foreigners speaking their primary language when upset, my Southern accent and dialect comes out more when I'm upset/tired/drunk etc.) ...

    yet I don't think it's the reason. As much as I'm explaining that I understand the theory and see it as an eenie-weenie part of it, I really do think that there's something inherently wrong with extremist Muslim teachings, because there are.

    Anything, whether it's being a Neo-Nazi or KKK member or Muslim terrorist, that tells you to kill people who aren't your kind, is bad news. What Islam has on its side is the threat of God and a decided ideological bent toward evangelism in the extreme; meaning convert, conquer, or kill.


    I did not claim that all cultures were equally good. I wrote instead that no one can assume their culture is automatically better than someone else's. The difference lies in that automatic assumption. If you consider your own culture better than another, it should be because you have made the effort to understand the other culture, and are thus able to make a meaningful comparison based on the facts and your personal values.
    Well yeah I understand all of this already, and have formed conclusions by learning about other cultures.

    This is a start at answering the question I posted earlier. Some people think, however, that if your clothes involve headscarves/veils, you are pushing your way on those around you. This is the line I was trying to identify: where is it?
    Some people say that past a certain point, the extreme conservative hijab is basically violating Western equality between men and women.

    It's not that they can't wear their skirts and scarves, but not even every Muslim country has this strict idea of women being so covered by the hijab you can't even see them; it's a marker of extremism, not just Islam.

  3. #393
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If they felt outrage about Chechnya, then I would think they would bomb Russia, not the U.S. He seemed to be trying to make the argument that they were scarred by some terrible life, but it's been shown again and again that a lot of terrorists are educated people, even professional people; one theory is that they feel like they belong to neither culture fully so in some cases embrace extremism as a way of tying themselves back to the old culture, which you can never completely be back in as an educated person who lives outside of it, I know this on a much smaller, teeny-tinier scale being someone who has spent most of her adult life in major cities while all of my relatives remain in the South, especially having older relatives who were pretty much mountain people and the effect this had on my family, I can relate to thinking you're too good for the old culture but not good enough for the new culture, and the extremist views are a way of romantically tying yourself back to the old culture.

    So it's killing people out of romanticism, in a way, in order to remove the sense of alienation of never really ever being able to "go back" and be like the people where you came from.
    That is one plausible motivation. It matters less what the reality of their situation was, than what their perspective on it was, however unjustified and even inaccurate that perspective may have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    yet I don't think it's the reason. As much as I'm explaining that I understand the theory and see it as an eenie-weenie part of it, I really do think that there's something inherently wrong with extremist Muslim teachings, because there are.

    Anything, whether it's being a Neo-Nazi or KKK member or Muslim terrorist, that tells you to kill people who aren't your kind, is bad news. What Islam has on its side is the threat of God and a decided ideological bent toward evangelism in the extreme; meaning convert, conquer, or kill.
    There is something wrong with any extremist teachings, or any that advocate violence against the innocent. Christianity was like this for awhile, but seems finally to have outgrown that phase. I wonder sometimes whether modern communication technology will enable Islam to grow out of it faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Some people say that past a certain point, the extreme conservative hijab is basically violating Western equality between men and women.

    It's not that they can't wear their skirts and scarves, but not even every Muslim country has this strict idea of women being so covered by the hijab you can't even see them; it's a marker of extremism, not just Islam.
    This is why I mentioned this example. Not all Muslim countries practice very strict covering. On the other hand, some individual Muslims wish to dress this way, even in the west. I have never understood how an individual clothing choice, voluntarily made, can be objectionable in a society that values individual rights. It might be a marker of extreme personal views, but if it is not forced on others, it does not indicate extremist behavior.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #394
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That is one plausible motivation. It matters less what the reality of their situation was, than what their perspective on it was, however unjustified and even inaccurate that perspective may have been.


    There is something wrong with any extremist teachings, or any that advocate violence against the innocent. Christianity was like this for awhile, but seems finally to have outgrown that phase. I wonder sometimes whether modern communication technology will enable Islam to grow out of it faster.
    Yes one of my Muslim friends from France said she thinks that Islam is about where Christianity was 500 years ago. That's due to religious leaders in the Arabic world dragging/keeping the region into the Middle Ages since about 1700-1800.

    So possibly, yes, the appearance of modern technology and education will improve the Muslim world.

    The thing I don't understand, though, is that the Christian Bible never instructed anyone to kill someone they couldn't convert. However, the Old Testament is full of all kinds of ancient violent Middle Eastern cultural sentiments that we see still pretty proudly displayed in the region.

    The problems are largely cultural, but there are versus in the Koran that are outright troubling.


    This is why I mentioned this example. Not all Muslim countries practice very strict covering. On the other hand, some individual Muslims wish to dress this way, even in the west. I have never understood how an individual clothing choice, voluntarily made, can be objectionable in a society that values individual rights. It might be a marker of extreme personal views, but if it is not forced on others, it does not indicate extremist behavior.
    I find it pretty troubling. I know an Orthodox Russian woman who is married to a Romanian who has her cover herself like that, and she's extremely intelligent but her husband sounds like a terrible man, I'd hate for this woman to have daughters; no one on this other web site can even figure out this warped sort of mixture of Orthodox Christianity with extremist Muslim sexism that appears in her marriage, but she wears veils and all that stuff, I'm guessing it's some odd hodge-podge of all the weird cultural influences in the former Soviet Union. She types herself as an INTJ. I'm inclined to think she may be an INFJ.

    But my point is, knowing so much about this woman's marriage, and knowing it's not even as bad as the conditions of Muslim women who even in Western countries can be judged in private "Sharia courts" ...I don't think the West should culturally allow or encourage the hijab, no, anymore than conservative Islamic countries allow or encourage their women to wear booty shorts or two piece bathing suits.

  5. #395
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Socionics
    bad
    Posts
    198

    Default

    She types herself as an INTJ. I'm inclined to think she may be an INFJ.
    I saw a lot of F's mistype to T's...

  6. #396
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    Si
    Socionics
    ESTP
    Posts
    774

    Default

    Marmotini can't differentate between muslims and wahabists. What is a islamic extremist?
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  7. #397
    Member Dudesowin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    MBTI
    INTP
    Socionics
    INTp
    Posts
    58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Are you aware that 's a typical case of "hate speech"?
    It is not a typical case of "hate speech". Hate speech would be saying "Islamic terrorists" from the get go. I am merely repeating the same idiocy and opening a referendum for disagreement. Can such an adjective be removed and such people be excluded from a group? For example most books that speak of explosives or really horrible stuff usually have a disclaimer that says "Hey don't kill people" its quite similar.
    Mastery is its own reward.

  8. #398
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Democracy, Islam and Cognitive Dissonance

    Islam is causing democracy cognitive dissonance.

    And cognitive dissonance causes emotional pain.

    So Islam is causing democracy emotional pain.

    Why is this?

    This is because Islam is a religion, and Islam is also an ideology of jihad.

    And democracies are committed to religious freedom, and democracies are opposed to political violence, such as jihad.

    And the democracies are unable to handle their emotional pain except by denial. And so we have no one but two American Presidents telling us Islam is a religion of peace, while denying the ideology of jihad.

  9. #399
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,575

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    The thing I don't understand, though, is that the Christian Bible never instructed anyone to kill someone they couldn't convert. However, the Old Testament is full of all kinds of ancient violent Middle Eastern cultural sentiments that we see still pretty proudly displayed in the region.

    The problems are largely cultural, but there are versus in the Koran that are outright troubling.
    The new testament may not encourage killing of the unconverted, but plenty of Christians have done exactly that, not to mention all the Christian-on-Christian killing over the years. It is often cultural, as well as economic and political.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I find it pretty troubling. I know an Orthodox Russian woman who is married to a Romanian who has her cover herself like that, and she's extremely intelligent but her husband sounds like a terrible man, I'd hate for this woman to have daughters; no one on this other web site can even figure out this warped sort of mixture of Orthodox Christianity with extremist Muslim sexism that appears in her marriage, but she wears veils and all that stuff, I'm guessing it's some odd hodge-podge of all the weird cultural influences in the former Soviet Union. She types herself as an INTJ. I'm inclined to think she may be an INFJ.

    But my point is, knowing so much about this woman's marriage, and knowing it's not even as bad as the conditions of Muslim women who even in Western countries can be judged in private "Sharia courts" ...I don't think the West should culturally allow or encourage the hijab, no, anymore than conservative Islamic countries allow or encourage their women to wear booty shorts or two piece bathing suits.
    I wonder if wearing headscarves is a cultural custom in parts of Russia, regardless of religion. In my brief time there, I saw lots of older women doing it, in areas where Muslims would have been a small minority. I'm against any form of coercion, so if this woman's husband is telling her how to dress (whatever that entails), it is not voluntary on her part, and does not meet the criteria I specified.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #400
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The new testament may not encourage killing of the unconverted, but plenty of Christians have done exactly that, not to mention all the Christian-on-Christian killing over the years. It is often cultural, as well as economic and political.
    Yes, I know. Culture can be a problem. That's why some are superior to others, if you have firm values. There's even an atheist feminist who declares the wearing of any kind of hijab an affront to Western Enlightenment values...which are pretty much what govern us.


    I wonder if wearing headscarves is a cultural custom in parts of Russia, regardless of religion. In my brief time there, I saw lots of older women doing it, in areas where Muslims would have been a small minority. I'm against any form of coercion, so if this woman's husband is telling her how to dress (whatever that entails), it is not voluntary on her part, and does not meet the criteria I specified.
    I'm not talking about a platok, I'm talking about a freakin' burqua, lol.

    This is on a European cultural forum, so trust me when I say there's plenty of forum members there who live in the region to verify that there's something culturally odd about what she does.

    It doesn't seem implausible though. At first some people thought she was a troll, but she kept going with such sincerity and posted pictures, that it became clear she really believed in submitting her her brutal, domineering husband and covering her body, and staying at home almost constantly, even if he went out with other women.

    Very weird stuff.

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] A Marathon of Consciousness
    By Prototype in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-15-2010, 01:07 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-22-2009, 08:09 PM
  3. What made my INTJ friend to start marathon training..
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-02-2008, 10:28 PM
  4. Homemade Science Experiment To Create Explosion? (Leftover T3s; codeine?)
    By Usehername in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-16-2007, 02:36 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO