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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Some meanings lead to nazism and some meanings lead to liberal democracy, yes.

    But should we condemn the whole Western culture because it also gave birth to Fascism?

    And I think I'm concerned, since my own family has been almost entirely wiped out of the surface of Earth because of Nazi Germany and Anti-semitism.

    Should I blame the Western culture nonetheless because according to some, it can only lead us to Nazism and ruthless imperialism?

    Should I forget Galileo, Spinoza, Descartes, Rousseau, Bach, Kant, Darwin, Einstein or Bohr just because Hitler existed?
    No one said to get rid of Aladdin or Arabian Nights or hummus because of Muslims, brah. I'm pretty sure they just want their own cultures to be safe from Islamic extremists, who as a matter of fact, hate Jews just as much as Hitler, you know.

    Jews and Christians were once under Islamic rule, you know, so there's nothing imaginary or fantastic about what I'm saying.

    You seem to find it improbable that some Muslims do crave the power that they do.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Some meanings lead to nazism and some meanings lead to liberal democracy, yes.

    But should we condemn the whole Western culture because it also gave birth to Fascism?

    And I think I'm concerned, since my own family has been almost entirely wiped out of the surface of Earth because of Nazi Germany and Anti-semitism.

    Should I blame the Western culture nonetheless because according to some, it can only lead us to Nazism and ruthless imperialism?

    Should I forget Galileo, Spinoza, Descartes, Rousseau, Bach, Kant, Darwin, Einstein or Bohr just because Hitler existed?
    You make an excellent point, dear Blackmail, as we have come to expect from you.

    However you must be aware of the systematic and rabid anti-semitism of Islam across the world.

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    It seem to see some kind of class struggle in here...
    I am not a Russian...

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    No one said to get rid of Aladdin or Arabian Nights or hummus because of Muslims, brah. I'm pretty sure they just want their own cultures to be safe from Islamic extremists, who as a matter of fact, hate Jews just as much as Hitler, you know.
    Have you ever heard of al-Razi, Ibn Sinna, Ibn Rushd, Al Khwarizmi, Al Biruni, Ibn Khaldun and so many others? -just to name the scientists-

    I tend to think that their intellectual heritage is slightly more complex than the usual recipe of "hummus". Without al-Razi for instance, we would never have had Spinoza, and the premises of what a liberal democracy could have been.
    Al Biruni is one of my favorites. This man was a genius. He invented the scientific method, while in the same time giving us the most documented sociological records about the culture of India, a culture he deeply loved. He was a true humanist, blaming the behaviour of his contemporary fellow men, and asking for more tolerance.

    And so on.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Have you ever heard of al-Razi, Ibn Sinna, Ibn Rushd, Al Khwarizmi, Al Biruni, Ibn Khaldun and so many others? -just to name the scientists-

    I tend to think that their intellectual heritage is slightly more complex than the usual recipe of "hummus". Without al-Razi for instance, we would never have had Spinoza, and the premises of what a liberal democracy could have been.
    Al Biruni is one of my favorites. This man was a genius. He invented the scientific method, while in the same time giving us the most documented sociological records about the culture of India, a culture he deeply loved. He was a true humanist, blaming the behaviour of his contemporary fellow men, and asking for more tolerance.

    And so on.
    I know that the Arabic world was intellectually very bright until everything was shut down by extremist Islam sometime around the Enlightenment. I went to university; I don't share your enthusiastic interest in Arabic culture, but I know that they were a powerful and intelligent culture for many centuries, in fact I'm doing them a favor when I compare them to the present day "white people" rhetoric, lest people forget just what Arabic cultures are capable of...they're intelligent people who have been very powerful in the past.

    I know there was an Islamic Golden Age.

    I care more about hummus and Arabic literature than I do about Arabic scientists, though.

    Hummus is one of my favorite foods, don't knock it.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You make an excellent point, dear Blackmail, as we have come to expect from you.

    However you must be aware of the systematic and rabid anti-semitism of Islam across the world.
    And so?

    Yes, I've noticed it. I was in the frontline during the last years: I've lived there. Not every discussion I had about Israel and Judaism was well accepted (but I think the majority of my students trusted my honesty about the subject nonetheless). And yet, I don't know how, but I have managed to survive. And believe it or not, but I was the only European expatriate in my neighbourhood. All my neighbours were Muslim North Africans, yet we got along very well.

    The truth is, that I've had far more issues about Anti-semitism with Muslims living in France than with Muslims living in predominantly Muslim countries.
    Yet, I admit I would never dare to set foot in Pakistan: the risks there are too high.

    But also remember that in Russia and many Eastern Europe countries, there's also a "systematic and rabid anti-semitism", and a very violent one. I've felt threatened there much more times than when I was in North Africa.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post

    The truth is, that I've had far more issues about Anti-semitism with Muslims living in France than with Muslims living in predominantly Muslim countries.
    Yet, I admit I would never dare to set foot in Pakistan: the risks there are too high.
    I think you and I agree more than you think we do, it's just that the cognitive dissonance of it is too much for you, or you're incorrectly presuming because I'm American that I think *all* people from Islamic cultures are "bad" which is a rather bigoted view of me as an American.

    I actually took the liberal soft-stance for several years until I learned more and just couldn't deny what was happening anymore.

    Now I just can't believe that intelligent, educated people still embrace this excuse-making soft stance, sort of like denying the obvious as it continues to grow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post

    Now I just can't believe that intelligent, educated people still embrace this excuse-making soft stance, sort of like denying the obvious as it continues to grow.
    Islamism and al Qaïdism don't grow and spread anymore.

    I've seen and talked with the young Arab generation, the one that did the "Arab spring". I was there during the massive demonstrations. They seem far more concerned by freedom of speech and democracy than with religious matters.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Islamism and al Qaïdism don't grow anymore.

    I've seen and talked with the young Arab generation, the one that did the "Arab spring". I was there during the massive demonstrations. They are far more concerned by freedom of speech and democracy than with religious matters.
    Islam fasting growing religion in Britain.

    Why do you switch back to peaceful Arabic countries in North Africa or Asia when I'm trying to make a point about Islamic extremism in the West, which you apparently do not deny?

    I've also done reading on the subject, and terrorists tend to generally be sort of like our college-educated friends who perpetrated the Boston bombing, not these impoverished victims some people seem to want to paint them to be.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Islam fasting growing religion in Britain.

    Why do you switch back to peaceful Arabic countries in North Africa or Asia when I'm trying to make a point about Islamic extremism in the West, which you apparently do not deny?

    I've also done reading on the subject, and terrorists tend to generally be sort of like our college-educated friends who perpetrated the Boston bombing, not these impoverished victims some people seem to want to paint them to be.
    Oh dear, the Gatestone institute.
    Next time you will quote the Ku-Klux-Klan as a reliable source about the fate and history of Afro-americans?

    Who did recommend you this source, tell me? [redacted]
    Or did you find it by yourself?

    It's an interesting and intriguing question.
    Last edited by Ivy; 04-25-2013 at 10:19 PM. Reason: removed personal info
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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