User Tag List

First 23313233343543 Last

Results 321 to 330 of 431

  1. #321
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Socionics
    bad
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Tell me, what would you do if you were a Chechen? Your country is occupied, your cities and monuments are volontarily and ruthlessly destroyed, half of the local women have been already raped by Russian soldiers, your relatives are murdered and butchered every day, you don't even know why... And the Russian army has this charming habit of exposing the mutilated bodies (women and children included) in public during a few weeks, so that survivors in the vicinity may eventually "learn their lesson well".

    So, what would you do?

    Do you really think here that the main issue is Jihadism and terrorism?
    OK,I know Russians kill Chechens,
    but anything link up with Chechens attack America?I didn't get the logic on it.
    Maybe revenge to Russians is more make sense...
    If you say they just became insane...any insane people could attack any countries randomly.

  2. #322
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Plainly, "USA, USA", and "Allahu Akbar", produce cognitive dissonance which is emotionally painful.
    Cognitive dissonance for whom, and in what way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    There are basic things in a culture which make it that culture. You don't have to participate. If you don't like it, you can refrain from joining. If you're American, you can vote to change things.

    But immigrants coming in with the intent to change the cultural landscape of a country is a form of take-over. For about a year now, I've become really disgruntled with whole "tolerance is more important than any other virtue."
    The U.S. is a nation of immigrants, so all those people who can expect to change things with their vote originally came from somewhere else (except for our indigenous people). None of these immigrant groups attempted to assimilate with the original native culture, they imposed their European culture on it instead. We like to think we are more enlightened today, and part of that enlightenment involves not assuming our culture is automatically better than someone else's. The question also remains: just how long must someone or his/her descendents live in a country before they now share that right to change things through voting and other peaceable participation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If you choose to immigrate to another country, you should try to assimilate as much as possible. If you don't you're attempting to invade the home culture.

    The reason I defend nationalism at all (and no I do not like it in its extreme or violent forms, racism and murder are not okay) is because of this. Americans have a right to be Americans, and Russians have a right to be Russians, and French have a right to be French.

    In these extremist Islamic sects (and no I'm not bashing Islam as a whole, just the extremist and cult-like versions) they want to "take over" like an insidious force, they literally want to Muslim-ize the cultures of Western countries. It's not that they want to be left alone. Normal Muslims want to be left alone, extremists want to actually invade and take over other countries.

    And I can't believe that people embrace this, that a more extreme form of liberalism defends it as being okay, like its harmless, or like they belong there.

    Like I said in another thread, I don't go to Saudi Arabia and plop down in public in a bikini, so if you'd like to come the U.S. or Russia or any other country where you feel "victimized" then stop acting like you're there to take over the home culture with your own.

    I would never presume to live in another country without trying to assimilate. I just don't even understand the sense of entitlement. Or why it's tolerated by anyone.
    Where is the line between allowable expression of diverse immigrant cultures, and trying to take over the existing culture? You wouldn't wear a bikini in Saudi Arabia, but should you wear an abaya? Do you need to get your husband's permission for things as Saudi women must, or even allow him to take additional wives? Conversely, if a Muslim woman in France wants to keep wearing an abaya, is this individual preference or a takeover? What about families that want to practice female circumcision in western countries? Obviously, forcing a foreign practice on others is unacceptable, but when, if at all, does the individual practice of differing customs cross this line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I actually told someone just yesterday that I don't think evangelism is spiritual. I don't mean evangelism in the sense of telling. If you want to talk about your morals or your faith or your beliefs (I sure as hell do) then fine, talk about them. Post blogs, post on forums, stand in public arenas and give speeches...but stop trying to violently, or even pushily, convert anyone. Stop it, just stop it. Don't knock on people's private residential doors. Don't do shit like that. Stop it. Stop it now.
    The best way to evangelize is by setting a good example. As the song goes, "They will know we are Christians by our love", not by our pushy evangelism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Tell me, what would you do if you were a Chechen? Your country is occupied, your cities and monuments are volontarily and ruthlessly destroyed, half of the local women have been already raped by Russian soldiers, your relatives are murdered and butchered every day, you don't even know why... And the Russian army has this charming habit of exposing the mutilated bodies (women and children included) in public during a few weeks, so that survivors in the vicinity may eventually "learn their lesson well".

    So, what would you do?
    Well, I would not kill and injure a bunch of random, unrelated civilians halfway around the world and expect it to improve the situation of Chechens in any way. Cause and effect, people: the citizens of Boston and their marathon guests are not responsible for the problems in Chechnya, and cannot affect the outcome there, however much they may sympathize. Sympathy which, I might add, will not be encouraged by blowing up part of their downtown. Acts like this are just the dangerous adult version of a temper tantrum.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #323
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    Si
    Socionics
    ESTP
    Posts
    774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I have heard everything from Chechens not really wanting independence in the majority (many former Soviet satellite states do better with Russian help) and the argument for keeping a watch on them is the same reason people fear American satellite states in the same region, to keep control over dangerous Islamic extremist cultures.
    All of this sounds like propaganda to me. First off if this was true, chechens wouldn't have voted overwhelmingly for independence during the dzhokar dudayev voting. There wouldn't be a strong movement for independence. Second almost all fundamentalist armed Islamist leaders are dead. And the surviving ones, like dokku umarov do not enjoy widespread support amongst chechens, because they have used strategies that delegitimize the chechen cause. Umarov's small brigade of fundamentalists have logistical problems with the tighter control of borders and their numbers are dwindling. He won't last long when they mobilize real attacks on him. So the threat of Islamic emirate in Chechnya isn't based on reality. The third is that the Russian government are most likely just lining poor arguments, to excuse and legitimize their exploitation of oilfields in north-Caucasus. Sponsored by gazprom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Some people say Chechnya isn't even capable of fully functioning as a country, and I've seen some things, and I take pity on the people, but my god.
    Yeah the stereotypical narrative that chechens are tribal savages who don't know how to run a civilized state. Stories full of blood feuds, unruly bandits, pillaging, religious fanaticism, disunity, hostility and warlike attitudes. It's repeated ad nauseum by Pro-Russian empire historians to convince people that Russians are the most competent and best rulers in the region. As if the Slavs and Muscovites were always united and embraced each other lovingly in contrast to the uncouth barbarians to the south. Even historically even when Chechen society was organized into teips, they still had functional systems of government that were village and town based. It's utter bullshit that Chechens are incapable of creating functional states. Russia between isn't exactly a model state.




    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    And I think you saying my moral integrity hinges on me giving you an absolute yes that Chechnya should be independent is pretty absurd, given all the conditions and circumstances.
    Because all independent and viable nations have a right to their homelands sovereignty, free of interferences from foreign forces and coercion. This is regardless of whatever imagined or existing conditions that would make it troublesome. The Russians have no compelling, legitimate excuse to withhold Chechen independence.

    No one would accept any less for their nation, why should we apply double standards to bigger nations. What is it that exempts Russia from this principle? The fact that a lot of Russians wrote good books and russian scientists contributed to space technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This is something I don't have a strong opinion on, and all I'm avoiding is you demonizing Russians and me avoiding arguing with you because I fear you actually may have personal life experience reasons to feel that way if you live in the Caucasus, in which case I can offer no opinion, because that would be unfair, since I base so much on life experience, give so much credence to it.
    I'm not demonizing Russians. I honestly couldn't care about Russian civilians/culture/language. But I cannot agree with Russian government or Russian states hostile policies towards Chechens and Chechen independence. Chechens and North-caucasians (especially circassians) suffered Insurmountable amounts of unreciprocated hostility, violence and attacks by the expansionist policies of the Russian Empire. Acknowledging that doesn't mean you hate all Russians. It's just marking what is right and just. It's a lie to say otherwise. Most Russians are just too proud to admit it. It's not a matter of culture/race/religion. It's a matter of a the Russian state acting like a colonial state. Does that demonize all Russians? No.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  4. #324
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Well, I would not kill and injure a bunch of random, unrelated civilians halfway around the world and expect it to improve the situation of Chechens in any way. Cause and effect, people: the citizens of Boston and their marathon guests are not responsible for the problems in Chechnya, and cannot affect the outcome there, however much they may sympathize. Sympathy which, I might add, will not be encouraged by blowing up part of their downtown. Acts like this are just the dangerous adult version of a temper tantrum.
    I would not do that either, but then again, we're "sane" people.

    And both of us haven't probably endured what Chechens family have. Once again, I do not seek to find an excuse to that act of terrorism (terrorism is never an excuse), but I think that the sheer sadistic brutality of the Russian occupation favors the occurence of insane, desperate men on the loose.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  5. #325
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unnamed View Post
    OK,I know Russians kill Chechens,
    but anything link up with Chechens attack America?I didn't get the logic on it.
    Maybe revenge to Russians is more make sense...
    If you say they just became insane...any insane people could attack any countries randomly.
    As you said, there is no objective reason why he should have taken revenge on "America". The man is obviously insane.

    The question remains why?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  6. #326
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    Si
    Socionics
    ESTP
    Posts
    774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    As you said, there is no objective reason why he should have taken revenge on "America". The man is obviously insane.

    The question remains why?
    They were influenced by Wahhabis with their global jihad, not chechen islamists. Hence why Dokka and Chechen Islamists distanced themselves from the act and claimed no responsibility, knowing it would damage their own image. It was retaliation for the Iraq&Afghan war and victims of drone strikes. This is always used by Their uncle said that he had heard that the older tsarnaev brother was in contact with a largely anonymous Armenian convert to Wahhabi Islam who influenced him. I'm inclined to believe this, the pattern for alot of converts who go Islam are ones who usually become extremist. Usually because wahabists have an active missionary branch that is spreading all over the world. Much unlike other movements within islam who are traditionally not missionary.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  7. #327
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    They were influenced by Wahhabis with their global jihad, not chechen islamists. Hence why Dokka and Chechen Islamists distanced themselves from the act and claimed no responsibility, knowing it would damage their own image. It was retaliation for the Iraq&Afghan and victims of drone strikes. Their uncle said that he had heard that the older tsarnaev brother was in contact with a largely anonymous Armenian convert to Wahhabi Islam who influenced him. I'm inclined to believe this, the pattern for alot of converts who go Islam are ones who usually become extremist. Usually because wahabists have an active missionary branch that is spreading all over the world. Much unlike other movements within islam who are traditionally not missionary.
    Yes. I've also witnessed this trend with new converts of the Wahhabi faith, unfortunately. They think they have a mission, they have to prove something.

    And even worst, many people here tend to confuse Wahhabism with Islam. Wahhabism has an agenda.

    So for their instruction, I should only write this: When I used to live in North Africa, nobody ever dared to try to convert me to Islam. Everybody was too respectful of who I was (the feeling was mutual), even if they invited me home countless times. Only back in France did I find Islamist zealots eager to convert me. And they were Wahhabis, of course.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  8. #328
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    Si
    Socionics
    ESTP
    Posts
    774

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Yes. I've also witnessed this trend with new converts of the Wahhabi faith, unfortunately. They think they have a mission, they have to prove something.

    And even worst, many people here tend to confuse Wahhabism with Islam.
    They're a very infantile literalist movement within Islam, who seem to ignore any form of pragmatism and real political philosphies(unlike secularist leaders in the muslim world who understand that you cannot base all policies on fixed doctrines, especially not in 21th century) instead choosing an authoritarian worldview. The equvalient in western terms with american evangelical christians. They even have the similar goals and dogmas(spreading their version of the religion) and beliefs. Their benefactors are in Saudi-Arabia. It's an interesting, parallel you can draw between both evangelical christians and wahabi muslims. They have their faith model and their will to infuse their social conservatism into politics and their belief systems on a global level.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  9. #329
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    They're a very infantile literalist movement within Islam, who seem to ignore any form of pragmatism and real political philosphies(unlike secularist leaders in the muslim world who understand that you cannot base all policies on fixed doctrines, especially not in 21th century) instead choosing an authoritarian worldview. The equvalient in western terms with american evangelical christians. They even have the similar goals and dogmas(spreading their version of the religion) and beliefs. Their benefactors are in Saudi-Arabia. It's an interesting, parallel you can draw between both evangelical christians and wahabi muslims. They have their faith model and their will to infuse their social conservatism into politics and their belief systems on a global level.
    Absolutely. That's also why I've always thought that Bush jr and Bin Laden were the two sides of the same coin. The parallel between the two men and the "infantile" way they expressed their respective faiths is rather obvious.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  10. #330
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Come on... How could you imagine a second that a lonely Chechen madman could "invade" your country, or even have this intention?

    The guy was desperate. I don't mean to excuse him, but if you saw what Russians did to Chechnya, at last you would realize why so many people over there have gone insane.

    He didn't even live in Chechnya, he was just ethnically Chechen and was in medical school. In many ways the younger one actually seems privileged. They were in the U.S. and one was in med school, the other forced his wife to work 80 hours a week while he stayed home, and collected welfare.

    Have you seen their photos? One boxer. One sweet looking, healthy kid. Not desperate.

    Your liberal agenda is so obvious that it's grating on my nerves.


Similar Threads

  1. [NF] A Marathon of Consciousness
    By Prototype in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-15-2010, 01:07 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-22-2009, 08:09 PM
  3. What made my INTJ friend to start marathon training..
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-02-2008, 10:28 PM
  4. Homemade Science Experiment To Create Explosion? (Leftover T3s; codeine?)
    By Usehername in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-16-2007, 02:36 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO