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  1. #301
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post


    Yeah, your posts arent influenced by your mood at all...
    Just wondering. Are you always so proud of yourself for being able to notice the obvious? My mood influences my posts, but not my stances nor the facts which I present.

    Re: arguing: Is that not what we were doing?

    Re: scoreboard: It's called a joke.

    Re: winner: Also part of the joke.

    Re: enemy: The opposite of an ally, which is clearly what you are in this case.

    I'm really not sure what you think you're accomplishing. You're just acting like an asshole.

    Now, if you'd care to actually address a point which was made rather than either just dismissing them because you don't like them or attacking the manner in which the point is presented...
    ...

  2. #302
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Who's the winner? No one! No one wins, and the loser is anyone who had to read this meaningless discourse between us.

    For the record, this is why I generally don't allow my enemy to frame the discussion, and also why I generally don't try to represent stances which aren't my own.

    This whole discussion is a waste of time. No original points from either side, and repeated hand-waving dismissal of points by you.
    It is indeed unfortunate, though I cannot view Lark or anyone as an enemy simply for espousing a different point of view. People might be surprised at my actual mindset when I enter an argument like this one. Part of it includes a genuine interest in being proven wrong, in the sense of: show me something I am not aware of, or haven't thought of. (Simply telling me I'm wrong will have no effect, though.) Whether I change my position or not, I should be able to learn something from the exercise.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #303
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    though I cannot view Lark or anyone as an enemy simply for espousing a different point of view.
    I'd wager I have a different view of "enemy" than you two. That seems to be part of the problem with my role in this little debate; that I seem to have a somewhat different semantic interpretation of precisely what's being said.
    ...

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post

    For the record, this is why I generally don't allow my enemy to frame the discussion, and also why I generally don't try to represent stances which aren't my own.
    FWIW, this is you being an Fi type; thinking of people as oppositional or enemies to the things you feel most strongly are the most important ethics (in your case, you apparently value the freedom to own firearms, I am supposing); however, as an Fi type, unlike an INTJ who can hide or cloud an Fi-driven opinion in Ni/Te, your Fi is at the forefront. So people are taking @Coriolis more seriously because he's able to cloud the fact that he has a completely utterly Fi-driven opinion in Ni/Te language, perhaps even deluding himself into thinking he's using Te instead of Fi, but you're both using Fi.

    This is an ethical question.

    End of story, and you're right, most people don't change things they feel very strongly ethically about, especially Fi types, unless they have some huge breakthrough, due to things like Ni perspective or increased amounts of Te information.

    The way I've learned to be taken more seriously is to develop my inner IxTJ. When you do that, it's much easier to argue or debate, and feel more confident doing so, so that you don't get so upset that your values are being challenged or violated.

    At least in a lot of cases. Even when you develop your inner IxTJ, some issues will push more buttons than others.

    I can act more "IxTJ" on topics such as gun control or Russian nationalism, but on the topic of nuclear war, I feel so strongly about it that I can't even successfully pull it off, because at the end of the day, I'm an Fi dom.

    So you're incorrect, I wasn't a loser by reading this conversation, I learned from it, and hopefully you might too. Even if what you learn isn't about gun control.

  5. #305
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    Should the government ban the pressure cooker and fertilizer?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Part of it includes a genuine interest in being proven wrong, in the sense of: show me something I am not aware of, or haven't thought of. (Simply telling me I'm wrong will have no effect, though.) Whether I change my position or not, I should be able to learn something from the exercise.
    Yeah this is part of my motive too. People have asked me before why I argue so much, to which my response is "this is how I learn."

    I really do. It's not just learning facts or information from other people, but also learning more about myself in the way I respond to others or when I see things written out.

    Of course, this motive is secondary. I think as an Fi type my primary motive is to express my ethical opinion.

    I think it's vice versa for xxTJs.

    I'd love for more TJs to admit to using logic to defend or justify things which are bottom line ethical arguments. This can never be anything except an ethical argument.

    What makes it worth discussing is the possibility that actual information could be given to justify one ethical path over another.

  7. #307
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    FWIW, this is you being an Fi type; thinking of people as oppositional or enemies to the things you feel most strongly are the most important ethics (in your case, you apparently value the freedom to own firearms, I am supposing); however, as an Fi type, unlike an INTJ who can hide or cloud an Fi-driven opinion in Ni/Te, your Fi is at the forefront. So people are taking @Coriolis more seriously because he's able to cloud the fact that he has a completely utterly Fi-driven opinion in Ni/Te language, perhaps even deluding himself into thinking he's using Te instead of Fi, but you're both using Fi.

    This is an ethical question.

    End of story, and you're right, most people don't change things they feel very strongly ethically about, especially Fi types, unless they have some huge breakthrough, due to things like Ni perspective or increased amounts of Te information.
    Why should I change my opinion in the absence of new information to the contrary. It is hardly convincing for someone else simply to repeat "you're wrong" in various flavors.

    It might come as a surprise that I agree with you on the matter of Fi (the function, not emotion). This is because values are at the root of all our choices and decisions. We can't judge or choose if we have no notion of what is important to us. Wishing to reduce gun violence at all thus reflects the value that human life should be preserved, and senseless killing is wrong. Wishing to minimize gun regulation reflects the value that someone doing no harm should be left alone. Logic, or even the Ni/Te functional combination in INTJs, just provides a means to these ends. Often, as in this case, the ends appear to conflict. Can we reach both, or must we sacrifice one to the other? If so, which is the priority? We are thus back to values again, but back to facts/logic as well, since those are the tools we can use to maximize how close we come to our overall goal. I am not using Te instead of Fi, I am using both, as we all use F and T together in some manner.

    To specify the Fi (values) informing my position: I start from valuing personal independence and autonomy. People's actions should be constrained only to the extent necessary to preserve the rights/freedom of others. Obviously, killing someone violates their rights in a rather extreme way. Limiting people's autonomy in a way that preserves life for others can therefore be justifiable, but only if it really has this effect. I don't expect anyone to give up the right to do anything if it cannot reasonably be shown to have the desired positive effect. In this case, we have the luxury of having tried this approach, and the resulting data that show its ineffectiveness. Since rights are inherent in our humanity (another Fi value) , the burden of proof rests with the government that wants to limit them, not the people who want to retain them.

    Edit: I wrote this before I saw your post just above it, and believe I have done here some of what you mention. The question of gun control is not just an ethical argument, though. It is very much one of logic as well, at least if we are discussing how actually to accomplish something rather than simply whether we should even try. To quote a few lines from my favorite original Star Trek episode:

    McCoy: I'm not talking about rationality.
    Spock: You might be wise to start.
    McCoy: Life and death are seldom logical.
    Spock: But attaining a desired goal always is.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why should I change my opinion in the absence of new information to the contrary. It is hardly convincing for someone else simply to repeat "you're wrong" in various flavors.

    It might come as a surprise that I agree with you on the matter of Fi (the function, not emotion). This is because values are at the root of all our choices and decisions. We can't judge or choose if we have no notion of what is important to us. Wishing to reduce gun violence at all thus reflects the value that human life should be preserved, and senseless killing is wrong. Wishing to minimize gun regulation reflects the value that someone doing no harm should be left alone. Logic, or even the Ni/Te functional combination in INTJs, just provides a means to these ends. Often, as in this case, the ends appear to conflict. Can we reach both, or must we sacrifice one to the other? If so, which is the priority? We are thus back to values again, but back to facts/logic as well, since those are the tools we can use to maximize how close we come to our overall goal. I am not using Te instead of Fi, I am using both, as we all use F and T together in some manner.

    To specify the Fi (values) informing my position: I start from valuing personal independence and autonomy. People's actions should be constrained only to the extent necessary to preserve the rights/freedom of others. Obviously, killing someone violates their rights in a rather extreme way. Limiting people's autonomy in a way that preserves life for others can therefore be justifiable, but only if it really has this effect. I don't expect anyone to give up the right to do anything if it cannot reasonably be shown to have the desired positive effect. In this case, we have the luxury of having tried this approach, and the resulting data that show its ineffectiveness. Since rights are inherent in our humanity (another Fi value) , the burden of proof rests with the government that wants to limit them, not the people who want to retain them.

    Edit: I wrote this before I saw your post just above it, and believe I have done here some of what you mention. The question of gun control is not just an ethical argument, though. It is very much one of logic as well, at least if we are discussing how actually to accomplish something rather than simply whether we should even try. To quote a few lines from my favorite original Star Trek episode:
    The argument is one of logic, but the logic tends to be built around an ethical position. Logic was used the in the economic analysis of the cost of gun ownership to the public. Clearly all people who support gun control aren't Fs, and all people who are opposed to it aren't Ts: I'd wager pretty strongly that I have a more developed T function than Tyrinth (I'm thinking possibly due to age, Tyrinth reminds me of myself when I was just a couple-few years younger, or even now when I'm really upset by something) ...but still manages to ethically share your opinion.

    I find that INTJs who accept that they are using Fi are a lot easier to talk to than ones who don't. It's almost like those with the least acknowledged Fi are the ones spewing it all over the forum, getting just as pissed off at me as I get at them, getting very offended that their Fi is being violated, etc.

    That's why ExTJs are almost NEVER upset by me. They actually are in some cases easier for me to get along with, despite their rejected Fi, unless they are totally immature.

    Fi tells us whether we value something or not, how deeply we value it, etc. I want to learn how to articulate more clearly how this process is reversed in TJs versus FPs, but somehow they both use both using judging functions.

    Thank you for your thoughtful and informative reply.

  9. #309
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    When the jihadi was caught, the Americans came out on the streets shouting, "USA, USA".

    Meanwhile in jihadi nations, they come out on the streets shouting, "Allahu Akbar".

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    When the jihadi was caught, the Americans came out on the streets shouting, "USA, USA".

    Meanwhile in jihadi nations, they come out on the streets shouting, "Allahu Akbar".
    FJ's vs FJ's.

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