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  1. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I think the reason you might observe INTJs in particular holding this opinion is that as rationals, they're unlikely to support policies which satisfy an emotional need to take action while offering little in the way of practical efficacy. That describes nearly all gun control legislation. It doesn't have to do with guns per se; it's about trading a cow for magic beans.
    Look, its as easy to dismiss resistance to gun control as emoting as it is to do the opposite.

  2. #272
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post

    I've politely attempted to demure, wish you well, not be "in the middle of it" and it's not just out of being politically correct, but of me no longer wanting to "get in trouble" on the forums for my own protection, and also because I find your world view quite subjective
    How is my world view subjective? How do you arrive to that conclusion? Me ceding to a position might be subjective, but it's arrived by studiousness and facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I can see you're going to stubbornly resist any attempt I have to tell you it's subjective; it is however partially out of respect, of me saying I don't "hate" any particular race or culture, at least not as individuals (though I may have distaste for it collectively in some cases).
    Aren't you being inconsistent here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You saying that scientific categories aren't facts is not a great place to start. Neither is the fact that you perceive the exact opposite of what Americans usually presume: most people unfairly categorize Russians as xenophobic awful neo-nazi racists, not say "oh wow Russians are so great in their cultural hatred of people from the Caucasus."
    Using scientific categories is not a sound way of describing human constructs. I'm sure your everyday Russian isn't concerned with any political and ethnic conflicts, no one ever describes ordinary people as representatives. Even if when you examine folk culture, you can look at the views of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I completely understand the Russian need to preserve their own culture, their fear of random acts of terrorism or violence within their own country, and I've actually sympathized to a degree with why some Russians are nationalists, though I don't tend to propagate nationalism as a wonderful ideology for all people to embrace blindly.
    The problem is still, their domestic issues come from them annexing large swathes of land that belong to non-Slavic nations, that were non-Muscovite in the 18-19th century. This resulted in their current conflicts with neighboring nations. I don't know how you can reconcile having a state which is multi-ethnic, a multicultural federation, while still feeling traditionalist and xenophobic. If Russians want to conserve their culture and end terrorism, they can start by ceding territories to peoples who do not want to be a part of the Russian federation. You can't have the cake and eat it. What about other peoples right to preserve their culture? Should only powerful nations have the right to things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Both sides see the other as unfair, that's pretty much the long and short of it, and as someone who values Russian culture, and who finds my Russian friends warm, generous people, I am afraid that my own world view is also too subjective to effectively see your point in the way you'd probably wish for me to.
    You don't have to sympathize with the Chechen cause. All you have to do, to maintain your moral integrity is to acknowledge that the Chechens right to independence is valid. Unless of course, you support Russian domination of foreign nations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You probably see this as some excellent opportunity to enlighten me, but I can assure you, that's not what is going on here at all.
    What is going on? No I'm not going to argue against Russians on behalf of Chechens here. I have not the slightest concern whether you'll feel any differently or change your perspective. My posts are factually correct and my only concern.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  3. #273
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Look, its as easy to dismiss resistance to gun control as emoting as it is to do the opposite.
    Easy perhaps, but not accurate. There is substantial evidence for the ineffectiveness of gun control, specifically an assault weapons ban as we were discussing, and next to none supporting its effectiveness. Add up the costs of implementation and enforcement - another objective exercise - and we don't even need to discuss the need or utility of the weapons in question. Of course, one can present objective, factual information in an emotional manner, but that is not helpful, and has been avoided so far.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Easy perhaps, but not accurate. There is substantial evidence for the ineffectiveness of gun control, specifically an assault weapons ban as we were discussing, and next to none supporting its effectiveness. Add up the costs of implementation and enforcement - another objective exercise - and we don't even need to discuss the need or utility of the weapons in question. Of course, one can present objective, factual information in an emotional manner, but that is not helpful, and has been avoided so far.
    And yet there IS less gun violence, particularly spree killing, in the uk where weapons are unavailable. Go figure.

  5. #275
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And yet there IS less gun violence, particularly spree killing, in the uk where weapons are unavailable. Go figure.
    Less gun violence where there are fewer guns? Color me surprised.

    What about the overall violent crime rate, though? I'm sure the UK is an especially safe place to live with those gun restrictions, right? There's no way the criminals just switched to knives causing the government to restrict those as well, right?

    There are other, cultural, differences at play as well, anyway.
    ...

  6. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Less gun violence where there are fewer guns? Color me surprised.

    What about the overall violent crime rate, though? I'm sure the UK is an especially safe place to live with those gun restrictions, right? There's no way the criminals just switched to knives causing the government to restrict those as well, right?
    My anticipation is that this could be the opening for a big emoting deluge.

    Personally I dont have the answers you're looking for and I suspect that you're making a rhetorical enquiry as opposed to sincerely asking anyway, someone told me you were single issue and that single issue was largely access to weapons, its not very relatable for me and doesnt carry the same emotional charge.

    When I was younger maybe, not today. Increase the peace, be the change etc.

    Although thanks for posting. :-)

  7. #277
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And yet there IS less gun violence, particularly spree killing, in the uk where weapons are unavailable. Go figure.
    I understand they are unavailable in Norway as well, but that didn't stop Anders Breivik. (I wonder, though, how much lower the death toll might have been had one of his victims been armed.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I understand they are unavailable in Norway as well, but that didn't stop Anders Breivik.
    I'm not a big fan of seeking to capitalise on things like that in discussions, if you're going to choose to do so I dont think I'm going to bother engaging you in discussion.

  9. #279
    ... Tyrinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    Personally I dont have the answers you're looking for and I suspect that you're making a rhetorical enquiry as opposed to sincerely asking anyway, someone told me you were single issue and that single issue was largely access to weapons, its not very relatable for me and doesnt carry the same emotional charge.

    When I was younger maybe, not today. Increase the peace, be the change etc.

    Although thanks for posting. :-)
    Yeah, it was rhetorical. I do a lot of research on firearms as used in crimes, and the general effect of restrictions on them. Basically that whole post was a collection of sarcastic statements, as I'm sure you know (which leads me to wonder why you act unsure about my intentions).

    Now who told you that I was single-issue? They're not wrong, it's just strange that people are talking about me like that.

    Why do you assume that I'm not about peace? The whole reason I'm supportive of firearms is that I want crime to decrease and I want the innocent to be protected. We may be walking different paths, but don't assume our goals differ that greatly.

    Virtually everyone wants to make the world a better place. It's just our views of how to do so which differ.
    ...

  10. #280
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not a big fan of seeking to capitalise on things like that in discussions, if you're going to choose to do so I dont think I'm going to bother engaging you in discussion.
    And I'm not a fan of the tactic of presenting one's own examples, then dismissing the counterexamples of others. My point is that restriction of firearms will not eliminate gun violence, even large-scale gun violence. The statistics don't bear this out, and the anecdotal evidence doesn't either.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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