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  1. #61
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yeah. Including the people that wrote the constitution.
    Well, hey... if you don't like it, there's a mechanism to change it.

    Working the plan is fundamentally more honest than pretending it says something it doesn't, or that it doesn't exist at all.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    He suspended it in a state (Maryland) that remained loyal to the Union, and it was completely unnecessary. And the secession question, as I've stated several times before, was a legitimate constitutional crisis, not terrorism. If he had suspended it for the South Carolinians who had fired on Fort Sumter, that would be one thing.

    "In response to the arrest of Maryland secessionist John Merryman by Union troops, then Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Roger B. Taney defied Lincoln's order and issued a writ of habeas corpus demanding that the U.S. Military bring Merryman before the Supreme Court. When Lincoln and the military refused to honor the writ, Chief Justice Taney in Ex-parte MERRYMAN declared Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional. Lincoln and the military ignored Taney's ruling."

    He defied the SCOTUS (you know, the branch of government who interprets the Constitution?) telling him that what he did was unconstitutional in that case. That is bullshit. I am glad that both Lincoln and FDR's legacies have been re-examined in the last twenty years or so. Neither were exemplars of defending the Constitution.

    Here are two articles from Slate that talk about the dubious nature of some of Lincoln's actions:

    Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus. - By David Greenberg - Slate Magazine

    America's military tribunals through the ages. - By David Greenberg - Slate Magazine

    I'm not saying Lincoln was perfect. No one is. Just considering the circumstances of the times these criticisms come off as nitpicks. A Marylander in jail for seven weeks is just not enough to call Lincoln a bad or average President.

    Were these actions (jailing journalists and suspension of h.c.) needed? Not really. Was there massive harm done by them? Not really.

    Show me some real, lasting damage wrought by Lincoln.

  3. #63
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Show me some real, lasting damage wrought by Lincoln.
    The modern interpretation of the Commerce clause.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The modern interpretation of the Commerce clause.
    LOL!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I'm not saying Lincoln was perfect. No one is. Just considering the circumstances of the times these criticisms come off as nitpicks. A Marylander in jail for seven weeks is just not enough to call Lincoln a bad or average President.

    Were these actions (jailing journalists and suspension of h.c.) needed? Not really. Was there massive harm done by them? Not really.

    Show me some real, lasting damage wrought by Lincoln.
    Yes, jailing dissident journalists is a major problem. A major, unforgivable problem when it comes to human rights. And it set an example for later war-time Presidents to run roughshod over the Constitution. Jailing pacifists and socialists during WWI, internment camps for Japanese-Americans in WWII, every crappy thing that George W. Bush has done in the past seven years. We are all worse off for it.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Yes, jailing dissident journalists is a major problem. A major, unforgivable problem when it comes to human rights. And it set an example for later war-time Presidents to run roughshod over the Constitution. Jailing pacifists and socialists during WWI, internment camps for Japanese-Americans in WWII, every crappy thing that George W. Bush has done in the past seven years. We are all worse off for it.
    They would've done it anyway.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    They would've done it anyway.
    I am beginning to think that you are being facetious. How could someone have such a cavalier attitude toward human rights?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am beginning to think that you are being facetious. How could someone have such a cavalier attitude toward human rights?
    Because human rights are violated all over the world all the time.

    They don't need Abraham Lincoln to show them the way.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Because human rights are violated all over the world all the time.

    They don't need Abraham Lincoln to show them the way.
    This is the United States of America. We have a Constitution to prevent that from happening, and you're telling me that a U.S. President who violated that Constitution in significant ways was OK because everybody else does it?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    This is the United States of America. We have a Constitution to prevent that from happening, and you're telling me that a U.S. President who violated that Constitution in significant ways was OK because everybody else does it?
    I'm not seeing "significant" in terms of real damage done.

    Any other President under those circumstances probably would've done the same thing. A significant number would've done far worse. Many would've failed under the challenge a civil war presented. Could you imagine Andrew Jackson as the Civil War President?

    Since you haven't been able to come up with any new criticisms, I'll ask another question: what Presidents have done a great job? Bonus points for those that actually tackled challenges vs. sitting on their ass cause nothing pressing needed to be done.

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