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  1. #51
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Score? Sure, Lincoln had a great score, if you compare him to Stalin or the Bubonic Plague. 2% of the population died in the civil war, and as many as all of our other wars, combined.
    I repeat my point that he didn't start it, couldn't prevent it, and that previous attempts to avoid it made have made the final outcome under Lincoln worse than it had to be.

    After all of that is considered, you might want to put more blame on Grant. It was his strategy to expend lives at the advantage of superior numbers. You might say that Lincoln could have taken action against Grant, but you have to remember that Grant was winning after a long series of Union generals who were mostly failures.

    So the final point is that the South could be left to secede without any trouble, but there's a lot of debate about what effect that would have had. Especially in terms of civil rights.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #52
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I repeat my point that he didn't start it, couldn't prevent it, and that previous attempts to avoid it made have made the final outcome under Lincoln worse than it had to be.

    After all of that is considered, you might want to put more blame on Grant. It was his strategy to expend lives at the advantage of superior numbers. You might say that Lincoln could have taken action against Grant, but you have to remember that Grant was winning after a long series of Union generals who were mostly failures.

    So the final point is that the South could be left to secede without any trouble, but there's a lot of debate about what effect that would have had. Especially in terms of civil rights.
    Lincoln FIRMLY believed that states did not have the right to secede, although his basis was pretty flimsy. I don't think separate nations would be a good option, but it was never settled in a constitutionally satisfactory way.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #53
    respect the brick C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    After all of that is considered, you might want to put more blame on Grant. It was his strategy to expend lives at the advantage of superior numbers. You might say that Lincoln could have taken action against Grant, but you have to remember that Grant was winning after a long series of Union generals who were mostly failures.
    It is nearly impossible to win a cheap victory against a good army, and Lee's army was quite good. The bloodiest battles of all are between two good armies, because neither one will fold or back down easily. Grant did what he could with what he had, and won.

  4. #54
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    If it is Texas and West Virginia, then I say we let em.
    Have you ever been to WV? Have you ever met anyone from WV?

    Texas? Yeah, let 'em.

    j/k Texans!!

    Edit: About forgot. Lincoln rules.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
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    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
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  5. #55
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAboutSoul View Post
    Edit: About forgot. Lincoln rules.
    That's the problem. He thought so, too. Should be "Lincoln leads and administrates."
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That list was more than adequate to give anyone who cares about the Constitution pause. HE PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL JUST FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR. How can that not make you angry? He suspended habeas corpus. You know, the concept that the Supreme Court (surprisingly) held extends to people in Gitmo? It says that you can't hold people prisoner indefinitely without their being convicted. That is a core human right. That alone puts him behind a bunch of presidents.
    Article I, Section 9: The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

    {emphasis added by me}

    If there ever was a time to invoke that section, the Civil War was it. The U.S. Constitution explicitly spells out that it can be suspended. Take it up with the Founding Fathers.

    Your characterization that somehow Lincoln was doing all this as a mad grab for power is disingenuous.

    Historians have repeatedly ranked him as the best President (though lately that's been challenged by FDR).

  7. #57
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Article I, Section 9: The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

    {emphasis added by me}

    If there ever was a time to invoke that section, the Civil War was it. The U.S. Constitution explicitly spells out that it can be suspended. Take it up with the Founding Fathers.

    Your characterization that somehow Lincoln was doing all this as a mad grab for power is disingenuous.

    Historians have repeatedly ranked him as the best President (though lately that's been challenged by FDR).
    He suspended it in a state (Maryland) that remained loyal to the Union, and it was completely unnecessary. And the secession question, as I've stated several times before, was a legitimate constitutional crisis, not terrorism. If he had suspended it for the South Carolinians who had fired on Fort Sumter, that would be one thing.

    "In response to the arrest of Maryland secessionist John Merryman by Union troops, then Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Roger B. Taney defied Lincoln's order and issued a writ of habeas corpus demanding that the U.S. Military bring Merryman before the Supreme Court. When Lincoln and the military refused to honor the writ, Chief Justice Taney in Ex-parte MERRYMAN declared Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional. Lincoln and the military ignored Taney's ruling."

    He defied the SCOTUS (you know, the branch of government who interprets the Constitution?) telling him that what he did was unconstitutional in that case. That is bullshit. I am glad that both Lincoln and FDR's legacies have been re-examined in the last twenty years or so. Neither were exemplars of defending the Constitution.

    Here are two articles from Slate that talk about the dubious nature of some of Lincoln's actions:

    Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus. - By David Greenberg - Slate Magazine

    America's military tribunals through the ages. - By David Greenberg - Slate Magazine
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  8. #58
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    He suspended it in a state (Maryland) that remained loyal to the Union, and it was completely unnecessary. And the secession question, as I've stated several times before, was a legitimate constitutional crisis, not terrorism. If he had suspended it for the South Carolinians who had fired on Fort Sumter, that would be one thing.

    "In response to the arrest of Maryland secessionist John Merryman by Union troops, then Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Roger B. Taney defied Lincoln's order and issued a writ of habeas corpus demanding that the U.S. Military bring Merryman before the Supreme Court. When Lincoln and the military refused to honor the writ, Chief Justice Taney in Ex-parte MERRYMAN declared Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus unconstitutional. Lincoln and the military ignored Taney's ruling."

    He defied the SCOTUS (you know, the branch of government who interprets the Constitution?) telling him that what he did was unconstitutional in that case. That is bullshit. I am glad that both Lincoln and FDR's legacies have been re-examined in the last twenty years or so. Neither were exemplars of defending the Constitution.

    Some people really aren't die-hard constitutionalists.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #59
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Some people really aren't die-hard constitutionalists.
    Well, nobody's perfect.

  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, nobody's perfect.
    Yeah. Including the people that wrote the constitution.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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