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  1. #41
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Shouldn't everyone's politics be against throwing newspaper publishers in jail simply for disagreeing with the President? Could you imagine if Bush tried that?
    That all depends on whether or not you agree with the particular President's goals, it seems.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Shouldn't everyone's politics be against throwing newspaper publishers in jail simply for disagreeing with the President? Could you imagine if Bush tried that?
    Again, what was the negative outcome?

    If, in the middle of a civil war, the worst decision the President ever made was to jail journalists, I'd say put him on Mount Rushmore.

    Oh wait, we did!

  3. #43
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Again, what was the negative outcome?

    If, in the middle of a civil war, the worst decision the President ever made was to jail journalists, I'd say put him on Mount Rushmore.

    Oh wait, we did!
    That's a pretty horrifying attitude, man.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's a pretty horrifying attitude, man.
    Perhaps, but then we NTs are utilitarians, not idealists.

    What else you got?

  5. #45
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Perhaps, but then we NTs are utilitarians, not idealists.

    What else you got?
    That list was more than adequate to give anyone who cares about the Constitution pause. HE PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL JUST FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR. How can that not make you angry? He suspended habeas corpus. You know, the concept that the Supreme Court (surprisingly) held extends to people in Gitmo? It says that you can't hold people prisoner indefinitely without their being convicted. That is a core human right. That alone puts him behind a bunch of presidents.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #46
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Perhaps, but then we NTs are utilitarians, not idealists.

    What else you got?
    that's exactly what I was saying. I'm a teolological utilitarian, and he is very clealy not.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #47
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That list was more than adequate to give anyone who cares about the Constitution pause. HE PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL JUST FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR. How can that not make you angry? He suspended habeas corpus. You know, the concept that the Supreme Court (surprisingly) held extends to people in Gitmo? It says that you can't hold people prisoner indefinitely without their being convicted. That is a core human right. That alone puts him behind a bunch of presidents.

    I understand why all of that is disagreable, but it's a matter of weighing out the score. How bad was that, exactly? How many other bad things did he do and how bad were they? How many good things did he do and how good were they? And then we can ask some questions about options and alternatives.

    The aim is to round it all off in the end. If he ultimately totals a positive "score" then... I'll have to let the journalist jailing thing slide. Not that I would forget it, but I will forgive it.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 06-25-2008 at 05:19 PM. Reason: clean up
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #48
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I understand why all of that is disagreable, but it's a matter of weighing out the score. How bad was that, exactly? How many other bad things did he do and how bad were they? How many good things did he do and how good were they? And then we can ask some questions about options and alternatives.

    The aim is to round it all off in the end. If he ultimately totals a positive "score" then... I'll have to let the journalist jailing thing slide. Not that I would forget it, but I will forgive it.
    It depends a lot on your view of the War. More than with any other issue for any other President, it defined his term in office. He was less vindictive toward the South than the Radical Republicans, and he was committed to the Union.. He had moderate views of blacks and was firmly against extending slavery as the country expanded. He was pro-homesteading and settling the West. The amount of power he sought to wield as President was unprecedented, however. I would say that he has a mixed record, but would be in the second quartile of presidents somewhere. #11-15 range for me. The second tier, after the greats.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #49
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I understand why all of that is disagreable, but it's a matter of weighing out the score. How bad was that, exactly? How many other bad things did he do and how bad were they? How many good things did he do and how good were they? And then we can ask some questions about options and alternatives.

    The aim is to round it all off in the end. If he ultimately totals a positive "score" then... I'll have to let the journalist jailing thing slide. Not that I would forget it, but I will forgive it.
    Score? Sure, Lincoln had a great score, if you compare him to Stalin or the Bubonic Plague. 2% of the population died in the civil war, and as many as all of our other wars, combined.

  10. #50
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Score? Sure, Lincoln had a great score, if you compare him to Stalin or the Bubonic Plague. 2% of the population died in the civil war, and as many as all of our other wars, combined.
    Lincoln didn't start the war. I don't think he handled it perfectly, but states were seceding before he ever took office, and South Carolinians fired on Fort Sumter first.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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