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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is getting way off topic. My original response was to MacGuffin, who I thought was being facetious.
    Actually I wasn't.


  2. #12
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And Texas was once an independent republic, whilst West Virginia formed in response to Virginia's being a secessionist slave state. THAT is irony, Kiddo.
    I knew we could agree on irony.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #13
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is an interesting constitutional question. Since the Union was formed by the States, what happens when one or more wants to sever ties? The question was never answered legally.
    If it ever got to the Supreme Court, they could recuse themselves under the Political Question Doctrine.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I suppose you're right. That was the only other alternative.
    I think 5-card draw, Jacks wild, could have settled the matter without bloodshed... but you know how THAT goes.

    edit: ... wait, you thought -MacG- was being facetious?!
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  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That is an interesting constitutional question. Since the Union was formed by the States, what happens when one or more wants to sever ties? The question was never answered legally.
    I guess this just flies so much in the face of your values that you don't really expect it, but I don't really care about consitutionally legitimacy unless the results are good. This was an exceptional and momentous occasion, and at that point, I kind of wonder why anyone who say "well, the consitution says they can secede, so we should let it happen with no questioning of the conqsequences". I guess, if you wanted to come up with a legal answer, than they should have just written into the constituiotn "no, you can't secede". Who wouldn't have seen that coming anyway?

    Morally speaking, I fancy myself something of a utilitarian/teleologist, whereas you are clearly a deontologist.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's true.

    We might have just had a United States and a Confederate States fighting awful landwars across the fluctuating mid-continent boundaries instead for 140 years.
    The Confederate states weren't expansionists, so this wouldn't have happened. In all likelihood they would have either remained a separate country or re-joined the union in 20-30 years (which is probably the most likely scenario), so it was just a matter of waiting. They were content remaining within their borders and never attempted to expand. In fact, this is the main reason they lost to the United States - they didn't want their land nor to enforce their values and laws upon the north. Had they worked on a different principle (that is, our old principle up through WWII), they would have completely dominated and taken control of the land of their enemy. If they had just done this, they would have crushed the north.
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    The Confederate states weren't expansionists. They were content remaining within their borders and never attempted to expand their borders. In fact, this is the main reason they lost - they didn't want the north. Had they worked on a different principle (that is, our old principle up through WWII), they would have flat made it a point to completely destroy and take control of the land of their enemies. If they had just done this, they would have crushed the north.
    No. The north had way more people, a stronger economy, and was ultimately more likely to get foreign support.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #18
    respect the brick C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    Good grief. I believe Wolf lives in a bizarro parallel universe but somehow he can post in this one.

    Fun fact: Confederate General Patrick Cleburne proposed arming slaves to address the CSA's manpower disadvantage vs. the Union. Clearly he did not get that slavery was the CSA's raison d'etre and that arming slaves would ultimately make secession pointless. His proposal was quickly rejected.

    Now that I think of it, a lot of reactionary movements are done in by their own contradictions.

  9. #19
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    Split from Obama V.P.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Abraham Lincoln was the greatest President this country ever had, and a near saint to boot.

    The only thing I wonder is how bad things would have been if another had been in his place.
    Instigator!

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