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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As a side note, that actually describes my own values there... But maybe that only shows that people might be more complex than these kinds of discussions tries to make them.
    They are. Of course they are.

    I just don't understand how anyone could continue to believe it, once given the details. I can see someone believing it from a distance, on the surface, like "wow liberals are trying to cover up third term abortions!"

    But it's really too easy to read about the fact that the doctor wasn't even licensed, that the women were also treated badly and in some instances killed, and that he was beheading infants who were able to live outside of the womb.

    It's also been pointed out by many sources how the incident and trial actually were reported.

    I mean if Fox news is so great, how come they didn't report it before now? That's the part I don't understand either. "OMG THE LIBERAL MEDIA." And it's like...um, so why didn't the conservative media report it before now? Because apparently some liberal sources actually were reporting it several years ago.

    A couple of blog entries in the The American Conservative at least has the integrity to admit that the story was reported a couple of years ago and that anyone who doesn't put an age of fetus cap on abortions is an "absolutist" instead of lumping in all people who are pro-choice together.

    Calling someone an absolutist is like calling them a fundamentalist or extremist. It's an acknowledgment that all people of xyz group are not this way.

    I like to read The American Conservative, because at least they can use big words.

  2. #32
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I heard about this when the arrests were made. It's normal for criminal cases to be kind of quiet between arrests and trial. I don't think it's gotten a lot of media attention because this is the kind of thing legal abortion is supposed to prevent.

    I consider abortion a type of infanticide and as such, you can safely assume I'm against it. But humans have been committing infanticide in various forms for a very long time. As long as conditions exist where women have unintended pregnancies and don't feel they are in a situation to have a child, it's not going away.

    We can try to reduce unintended pregnancies,improve access to resources and and we can keep women as safe as possible when those situations arrise. Those are the choices as I see them with current technology.

    Illegal abortion basically consigns all women of modest means to the tender mercies of people like Gosnell. I can't see how that would be a good thing.

    I'm pretty darn liberal and wouldn't have a problem executing this guy, assuming he's as guilty as he appears to be. Of course, my main problem with executing criminals is that our justice system is very classist and racist. We'd end up executing a lot of innocent people if we executed everyone we convicted of crimes I think people should be executed for. The Innocence Project (and maybe other groups like it) is doing the best it can, but it's slow-going.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  3. #33
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    What exactly is your goal in this thread?
    Mostly to point out the extreme disparity between the coverage of this story and the coverage of equivalent types of stories, and to note that such an obvious operational bias (intentional or otherwise) should not be tolerated from ostensibly non-partisan or non-ideological news sources. If this was mostly unintentional oversight based on unconscious bias (which I assume to be the case in most instances), then something needs to be done about media culture and the institution processes through which news is filtered to the public. If its worse than that, then such media sources need to be exposed as agenda-driven outlets along the lines of the Nation or National Review.

    Oh, and I have no problem if the story happens to result in greater scrutiny of abortion providers or increased public opposition to late-term abortions, but seeing as different people interpret the same information in different ways, that's certainly not a definite outcome. Either way, people should be exposed to all the facts, without blatant double standards from news sources that claim objectivity. If they're going to sensationalize other lurid events with possible policy implications, they should do the same with this case.

    What is your goal in opposing equal coverage between objectively similar stories (in terms of the 'if it bleeds it leads' standard, especially with stories that just so happen to have policy implications, at least according to the perspective of large numbers of the public)?

  4. #34
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I think the bias is on the right, I mean who the fuck really thinks the mainstream left wing is cool with this?
    Probably about the same as the number of liberals who believe abortion opponents are anti-woman and motivated by misogyny rather than concern for what they perceive as human life.

    Anyway, the point is not that mainstream liberals do not oppose this, but that many in the news media are clearly reluctant to give equal exposure to this story (and many others were strangely ignorant about it). One possible reason, which I find convincing for reasons that I already explained, is that they are concerned about its impact on tangential policy debates. Another plausible reason commonly offered is that it falls outside of various 'narratives' that newsroom culture concentrates on, and reporters/editors simply fail to recognize its salience or importance to vast numbers of the public.

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    You can't trust US news media. It's all owned by, like, a half-dozen corporations. Whatever those corporations believe is in their interests, that's what they're going to show us.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Probably about the same as the number of liberals who believe abortion opponents are anti-woman and motivated by misogyny rather than concern for what they perceive as human life.
    Well I don't. I actually comprehend the view that some women actually see abortion as a sexist act of violence AGAINST women, like taking their motherhood from them, invading their bodies, I mean if there's no baby to take care of, the father doesn't have to pay for it amirite? I know of several cases of husbands/boyfriends attempting to coerce or succeeding in coercing their SO to abort against her will.

    There is a lot of misogyny on the right though, but that's due to socially conservative ideas of the religious right, which supports the idea of a patriarchal society, it just does, that's religious social conservatism for you, whether it has anything to do with actual religious ideas, it's ingrained into the culture.

    Anyway, the point is not that mainstream liberals do not oppose this, but that many in the news media are clearly reluctant to give equal exposure to this story (and many others were strangely ignorant about it). One possible reason, which I find convincing for reasons that I already explained, is that they are concerned about its impact on tangential policy debates. Another plausible reason commonly offered is that it falls outside of various 'narratives' that newsroom culture concentrates on, and reporters/editors simply fail to recognize its salience or importance to vast numbers of the public.
    I don't know the guy was some kind of serial murderer, not an abortion doctor, he wasn't even licensed, he decapitated babies who could survive outside of the womb, and he also killed two of his female patients and operated a dirty facility.

    Feminists don't approve of that, and most normal liberals who aren't feminists would probably not approve of that either.

    People who believe in infanticide are extremists, it would be like saying all Christians belonged to the Jim Jones cult or something to say all pro-choice people are even remotely okay with infanticide.

    The mainstream media is a horrible circus, and that includes mainstream conservative media; it's all full of huge circus events and flashy b.s. intended to frighten, arouse, and excite people rather than inform them/

    So it not fitting into the narrative is about right, though it does dovetail quite nicely with the Fox news narrative that the left wing are all controlling the media and eat babies for breakfast.

    I find myself strangely ignorant about a lot of things, and it's because I do not like to watch the news; when I was a child the news was given in a non-sensationalist, dry format that was more respectable and less similar to the National Enquirer. Once I realized that mainstream news programs just alarm people unnecessarily, I tend to only watch them once in a blue moon, for special events, or for one day just because I feel up to it.

    I mostly read the news on-line from various sources, and I tend to avoid anything with certain key words in it (abortion being one of them) so if this came up and I actually had a chance to read about it, I wouldn't have. The only reason I even started paying attention to it is because I have been watching television for about the past week, and I was flipping through the channels, and I noticed some people exaggerating on Fox news and was curious as to what they were talking about, out of a kind of bland curiosity.

    Now I'm interested in the story mainly because of the partisan politics surrounding it, as some kind of sociological observation more than anything, which is why I looked into what different sources on-line had to say about it, other than your one biased source.

    Because that's how I roll.

  7. #37
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Now I'm interested in the story mainly because of the partisan politics surrounding it, as some kind of sociological observation more than anything, which is why I looked into what different sources on-line had to say about it, other than your one biased source.
    Yeah, everyone knows The Atlantic is a cesspool of anti-abortion extremism....

    Edit: I chose the article because it seemed the best one available for my purposes at the time, I'm glad if anybody who read it was interested enough to look up other sources, hopefully from a diverse assortment of viewpoints.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Yeah, everyone knows The Atlantic is a cesspool of anti-abortion extremism....

    Edit: I chose the article because it seemed the best one available for my purposes at the time, I'm glad if anybody who read it was interested enough to look up other sources, hopefully from a diverse assortment of viewpoints.
    The authors language was so emotive that of course it was biased. I recognize emotive language easily because I use it. Hyperbole is a trait I share with the author of that article.

  9. #39
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    My take:

    This is an old story. Explicitly left-wing publications already took it up. It's been revived primarily by right-wing publications because I suppose they've felt a recent lack of attention on their pet issue of banning abortion, and framing it as a liberal media conspiracy combos into the rest of their usual MO.

    This story actually makes no relevant point about the abortion debate. Any so-called medical practitioner that behaves like this would be a monster. Consider Harold Shipman. This does not act as any sort of evidence that an abortion doctor is more likely to be such a murderer than any other kind of doctor. I would also posit that if anything situations like this one would become marginally more common if abortion were illegal as it would become a shadow activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    By that standard, 'minor' and 'local crime' stories like Sandy Hook, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. would receive the same type of minimal and sporadic coverage from mainstream sources as the Gosnell story. It strains credibility to claim that mainstream outlets underreported the story because they thought it wasn't profitable (i.e lurid) enough.
    You're right that your particular suggestion would strain credibility, but it's just not the issue here. The thing is, in any given month, there are more lurid things going on in this country than all of our news networks could report. The dubious part of the news coverage is which stories they bother to latch onto. For example, it is infamously noted that stories about missing victims almost always focus on attractive white women (unless they are children, which are still usually white). The media may have simply felt this wasn't sensational enough, or was too much trouble, compared to all the other options. This is a sick way to put it, but basically getting your tragedy some news coverage is a very competitive game.

    I don't know how many people share my opinion, but honestly school shootings and serial killers are over-reported. I swear news coverage is almost inversely proportional to the importance of an issue. It's a part of what makes The Onion's trademark, extremely mundane stories funny.

    EDIT: Also, I hate me too posts, but I essentially agree with Lateralus here.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, it's already clear you're gonna push this anti-left-wing scree no matter what possibilities someone tosses out so... enjoy that.
    Do you believe that only an unreasonable person would be unconvinced by the alternate possibilities thus far offered? Or do you think it unreasonable to think that there is some connection between different levels of coverage between this and other stories and the well-documented ideological sympathies of professional journalists on the relevant issues?

    Anyway, for those interested, the same author from my original post recently listed several possible theories that have been offered up (including some which have already been discussed here), and does a pretty good job of presenting each of them fairly and neutrally: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ention/274966/

    Edit: And FWIW, I find the first theory examined in the article to be a pretty good partial explanation for the lack of coverage, and much more convincing than the notion that the story wouldn't be profitable or would be too beneficial to the pro-choice cause..

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