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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    Once again government is complicit in the murky dealings of the military industrial complex. It is the greatest murderer that has ever existed and the biggest threat to it's own population. Of course it's wrong. At the time it turned a few shillings for the UK economy, but in this case it backfired, which is always the risk.
    And totally in line with a good "faith" in Austrian economics, the beauty of the free market economy and all that.

    You are right about one thing, we arent ever going to agree, I know you're basking in your own belief that your position is rational and reasonable and while everyone else is merely opinionated but since you've described how you managed to have a change of heart before, from wishing the Lib Dems (BTW was that about the time they were just the liberals or after they merged with the SDP?) well to embracing Thatcherism, perhaps it'll happen again.

    Enquiring minds arent satisfied with the sorts of easy, quasi-mystical, answers that faith in free markets provides so who knows.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    Invading the islands (whatever you would like to call them) is an act of war. If the soldiers in the Argentinian army were conscripted you should question the policies of those doing the conscripting rather than Mrs. Thatcher.
    I couldn't resist correcting you, because I found it funny you choose to use that exact turn of phrase. But the sign should have let you know I was just being pedantic.

    I disagree with you about the Malvinas and I think Thatcher represents that exact kind of British supremacism at the heart of the problem.

    But in any case, regardless of your views on the conflict itself: the sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime, and she ordered it. Yes or no?

    Fine if you don't care, I wouldn't necessarilly expect you to. But then don't expect me to care that she is dead.

  3. #23
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And totally in line with a good "faith" in Austrian economics, the beauty of the free market economy and all that.

    You are right about one thing, we arent ever going to agree, I know you're basking in your own belief that your position is rational and reasonable and while everyone else is merely opinionated but since you've described how you managed to have a change of heart before, from wishing the Lib Dems (BTW was that about the time they were just the liberals or after they merged with the SDP?) well to embracing Thatcherism, perhaps it'll happen again.

    Enquiring minds arent satisfied with the sorts of easy, quasi-mystical, answers that faith in free markets provides so who knows.
    I hesitated to use the word faith, knowing you'd pick up on that. My understanding is they use logical deduction and so there isn't really much that is mystical. A lot of the work I have read cites many examples of government mal-practice, supported by data and citations. Robert Higgs is a particular favourite of mine. My stance is that it offers the best explaination so far, but as an amateur economist I'm constantly learning and may well change my mind. As you'd expect, an INTJ would never be that dogmatic or set in their ways.

    Politically, I do change my mind. I supported the Liberals under David Steel and then the alliance, liberal democrats etc. There is very little chance though that I would ever support the labour party or their ilk.

    I'd like to say I enjoyed being patronised by you. Alas this simple mind clearly isn't as enquiring or as understanding of complex statistical methods of economics as yours. No doubt you excel in many other fields too or at least you like to give that impression. You cannot win an argument by diminishing your opponent through ad-hominim attacks. It is demeaning for all concerned.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I couldn't resist correcting you, because I found it funny you choose to use that exact turn of phrase. But the sign should have let you know I was just being pedantic.

    I disagree with you about the Malvinas and I think Thatcher represents that exact kind of British supremacism at the heart of the problem.

    But in any case, regardless of your views on the conflict itself: the sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime, and she ordered it. Yes or no?

    Fine if you don't care, I wouldn't necessarilly expect you to. But then don't expect me to care that she is dead.
    She ordered the attack, but it wasn't a war crime. Regardless of where the exclusion zone was set by the UK government or which direction it was travelling, it was fair game. I'm sure the crew on board realised the risks of sailing a military vessel in the region at that time. It was not a civilian vessel: if that had been the case then yes, it would have been a war crime. I find it all rather pathetic really. The Argentinians started a war, and lost. The people of the islands are happy to be part of the UK so that is how it should remain.

    I don't care if you care Thatcher died. I don't even care that she's dead. Why would I?

  5. #25
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    And totally in line with a good "faith" in Austrian economics, the beauty of the free market economy and all that.

    I'm not sure what governments spending money on militiary equipment, or selling it to other governments has to do with Austrian economics or the free market.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    She ordered the attack, but it wasn't a war crime. Regardless of where the exclusion zone was set by the UK government or which direction it was travelling, it was fair game.
    Yes, if you choose to redefine what a war crime is, then it wasn't a war crime.

    We can debate the Malvinas another time. But I have to reply to that laughable "self-determination" argument. I just hope you are consistent, and that if Bethnal Green in East London votes to affiliate to Pakistan, you will accept it.

    I don't care if you care Thatcher died. I don't even care that she's dead. Why would I?
    You seemed to find it irrational that so many people were coming out to oppose her after her death.

    My point is that she conducted herself in such a way as to designate and crush enemies, so it is no shock that in her death, so many people are having the last laugh.

    Personally I think all these opposition campaigns would have been very minor, if the Cameron govt. and most of the media had not launched a huge campaign to turn her into national hero. But of course if you do that, it's offensive to millions of people who she impoverished and humiliated, and they will react.

    I would say let her friends and family bury her in peace. But seeing as she was so divisive and they are turning her funeral into a public affair, then I think it is good and necessarry that so many people have come out to oppose this "official" rewriting of history.

  7. #27
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Yes, if you choose to redefine what a war crime is, then it wasn't a war crime.

    We can debate the Malvinas another time. But I have to reply to that laughable "self-determination" argument. I just hope you are consistent, and that if Bethnal Green in East London votes to affiliate to Pakistan, you will accept it.



    You seemed to find it irrational that so many people were coming out to oppose her after her death.

    My point is that she conducted herself in such a way as to designate and crush enemies, so it is no shock that in her death, so many people are having the last laugh.

    Personally I think all these opposition campaigns would have been very minor, if the Cameron govt. and most of the media had not launched a huge campaign to turn her into national hero. But of course if you do that, it's offensive to millions of people who she impoverished and humiliated, and they will react.

    I would say let her friends and family bury her in peace. But seeing as she was so divisive and they are turning her funeral into a public affair, then I think it is good and necessarry that so many people have come out to oppose this "official" rewriting of history.
    You have reminded me of a film called passport to Pimlico. I think you'll find we're having a simliar referendum in Scotland in the near future. My own personal opinion is that democracy should be devolved down to the lowest possible level. If Bethnel Green or whoever wished to vote in that way and they were recognised by the UN, then the government would have to give it serious consideration. However, there'd be implications for them and life could be made very difficult for its inhabitants. I'm not a lawyer so whether it is a crime or not I cannot say. There will never be a prosecution and in the grand scheme of things it is irrelevant. The Argentinian president needs to realise that if you start a war, you accept the consequences, the fog of war and the death and killing that it entails.

    If people want to celebrate her death then that is their right. If they want to spend their time and money in such pursuits I would not wish to stop them. I find it distasteful and small minded. My original point was to do with the way that her leadership is portrayed in emotive terms. People are moralising and using words such as evil, which are not helpful. They fail to tackle the real issues or offer a sensible alternative strategy. Whether she was right or wrong, whether people agree or disgree, whether they benefited or not, she was an extremely significant political figure in the UK and therefore her death deserves attention.

  8. #28
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    Margaret, the First Woman Prime Minister of Britain v Right Wing Catholic Fascists

    Margaret, the first woman Prime Minister of Britain, fought the Catholic Fascist Generals of Argentina and won.

    But just the other day these Catholic Fascist Generals were brought before an Argentinian court charged with torture and mass murder.

    And guess what - each one of these Catholic Fascists Generals were wearing on their lapel, a badge of the Vatican flag, to celebrate an Argentinian Catholic becoming Pope.

    This is all of piece with the fact that Right Wing Catholics formed the backbone of Fascism in Europe and South America.

    Although it must be said that Nazism, apart from Fascism, was informed by the Nordic Gods and not the Catholic Trinity.

    And we can see in the Argentinian Court today that Right Wing Catholicism still informs Fascism.

    They don't so much wear their heart on their sleeves, rather they wear their flag on their lapel for all to see.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Margaret, the first woman Prime Minister of Britain, fought the Catholic Fascist Generals of Argentina and won.

    No. She sent one of the world's richest armies to fight.

    She was quite an admirer and loyal friend of General Pinochet so I don't think her problem was against "Catholic fascist Generals", just that she saw a political opportunity.

    I would note your misuse of the word fascist and your distortion of Argentinean history, but it doesn't matter so much as we are discussing Thatcher not Galtieri.

    Out of interest, I ask myself what opinion would Maggie T have held of the lady in your avatar?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    My original point was to do with the way that her leadership is portrayed in emotive terms. People are moralising and using words such as evil, which are not helpful. They fail to tackle the real issues or offer a sensible alternative strategy. Whether she was right or wrong, whether people agree or disgree, whether they benefited or not, she was an extremely significant political figure in the UK and therefore her death deserves attention.
    Perhaps they suffered under her greatly. I don't care if they express it in "emotional" language or "objective" language.

    Same as I don't care if a Thatcher supporter wants to express their support in "emotional" or "objective" language, I still disagree.

    End of the day most people in life speak emtionally about things. Of all the things you could disagree with them about, this seems like a meaningless one to comment on, IMHO.

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