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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleuthiness View Post
    Dear Diary

    Ripped my face off

    Looking for emotional support

    Shelter from eternal boredom

    a warm butt

    Thank you for hearing my prayer

    Hail Marm
    I'd say referring to yourself as God's chosen people is pretty damn racist, my friend. It mirrors my bff's Japanese grandma saying that the Japanese are the superior race.

    Ultra-religious Jews and Zionists do tend to be extremely racist, and extremely fiscally conservative, and I live in an area, and used to work, in a neighborhood pretty much dominated by wealthy ethnic Jewish people, where they pay to keep Mexican fruitas men off of their sidewalks and so forth. It's one of the most affluent areas of the San Fernando Valley. This isn't a coincidence. I also worked in an Israeli market for a short period of time and noted the extreme exclusivity of Israeli Jews.

    I'm not "bashing" Jews, as individuals.

    I'm telling you that CULTURALLY SPEAKING (not as a physical race, and not as individuals) Jewish people are racist. They think they're superior to and separate from Gentiles. They are also culturally very wealthy.

    So your point is totally lost, my point was is that people tend to rain a lot of unwarranted pity on Jewish people, as a whole, like they're some oppressed group; they really aren't, collectively speaking, if anything, they're a world power that rivals anyone else.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I dunno, Marm, I have to be honest, I live in the Carolinas and was raised in an urban area, but have been to rural areas a fair amount during my lifetime, and I've been impressed by the level of xenophobia and resistance to new information that I have encountered. On the other hand, of course, I have met some lovely, welcoming, warm and humble country families who characterize Southern hospitality. I'm not particularly Southern myself because my parents were Northerners and I've been treated like crap by strangers and even by people I thought were good friends who have told me I "don't belong here" and I'm not a "true" Carolinian because I don't have a family that's lived here for generations and I don't have any trace of an accent. Even urban residents in the older circles around here still treat the nouveau riche like they're inferior. I've heard it in particular from older relatives of wealthy family friends, grandparents who own summer houses and hold society gatherings and whatnot. I'm not saying bigotry isn't ubiquitous, of course, but there really is a particular variety of xenophobia that is often found in the South.
    All people are xenophobic to some extent and that's actually not the point of this thread. I'm talking about people demonizing people from rural areas for their ignorance when they aren't necessarily any more responsible for their poverty or ignorance than people from the inner city; I wonder why it's deemed acceptable to mock these extremely poor and intellectually deprived people but not others.

    Of course Southern people treat the neuveau riche like they're inferior. They're yuppies. They're money without history or culture.

    I pointed out myself in this thread that the South is divided by classes, and in the South class still has more to do with education and culture than money, similar to the way it is in Europe.

    Only Americans would be idiotic enough to think that money gave a person class, in and of itself. And that's where we get travesty freak shows like Las Vegas, Nevada, plenty of money, zero culture, high suicide, high homelessness, low educational achievement, low-brow.

    Money =/= culture.

    But yes, Southerners are xenophobic in a manner similar to Russians and Mexicans, and other cultures where things like history and cultural mythology take deep precedence, and also gender and social roles matter deeply in "honor cultures" and in that way the South is very similar to Japan.

    I still think you have more hospitality in the South. You can move to a major city, and people will just ignore and deride you like everyone else, and when they hear you screaming in a ditch, they'll just roll up their window; not because "you don't belong here" but because that's how they treat everyone.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    All people are xenophobic to some extent and that's actually not the point of this thread. I'm talking about people demonizing people from rural areas for their ignorance when they aren't necessarily any more responsible for their poverty or ignorance than people from the inner city; I wonder why it's deemed acceptable to mock these extremely poor and intellectually deprived people but not others.
    Right, but I'm trying to say that I think that's part of why they are demonized, because they often can be disparaging to others. There's an attitude of "go away", which can be read as "we're not interested" - so it comes off as more willful ignorance and poverty.

    Of course Southern people treat the neuveau riche like they're inferior. They're yuppies. They're money without history or culture.

    I pointed out myself in this thread that the South is divided by classes, and in the South class still has more to do with education and culture than money, similar to the way it is in Europe.

    Only Americans would be idiotic enough to think that money gave a person class, in and of itself. And that's where we get travesty freak shows like Las Vegas, Nevada, plenty of money, zero culture, high suicide, high homelessness, low educational achievement, low-brow.

    Money =/= culture.
    True, though there are also a lot of trappings tied up in that that don't equivalate out, either. Money doesn't equal culture, but neither does social class, and social class doesn't guarantee intelligence, and intelligence doesn't equal money. So we also end up with people who think they're the shit because they live in fancy old houses and they have a certain last name, even if they live in towns of only a few thousand, and refuse to welcome new influences and their gifts. It's like the Catholic Church, which has finally turned a new leaf and is welcoming Latinos because frankly it would be on a rapid path to dying out without them - they only had themselves to blame for their failure for a long time, because they were intentionally unwelcoming to particular groups.

    But yes, Southerners are xenophobic in a manner similar to Russians and Mexicans, and other cultures where things like history and cultural mythology take deep precedence, and also gender and social roles matter deeply in "honor cultures" and in that way the South is very similar to Japan.

    I still think you have more hospitality in the South. You can move to a major city, and people will just ignore and deride you like everyone else, and when they hear you screaming in a ditch, they'll just roll up their window; not because "you don't belong here" but because that's how they treat everyone.
    Actually, I always saw that as more a function of heavily-populated areas. There's an unspoken rule in New York that you don't catch other people's eyes on the subway. It's not because you hate everyone, but because you're so densely packed that you need a different way of maintaining personal space. City people tend to be more brusque, I believe in part because there are so many people to deal with. You can't exactly stop and say hello, how are you to every person you come across during the day when you cross paths with several million. For most people I think it's quite neutral, though of course some people just have to take it to an unfriendly level.

    The difference remains that urban dwellers tend to be equally brusque, whereas in rural society ostracization tends to be more personal - if only because there's more time and space for it to be personal. Regardless, it comes off as more intentionally hurtful, and therefore ignorance more intentionally willful.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Right, but I'm trying to say that I think that's part of why they are demonized, because they often can be disparaging to others. There's an attitude of "go away", which can be read as "we're not interested" - so it comes off as more willful ignorance and poverty.
    What?

    It's willful ignorance and poverty? What are you talking about? If people are ignorant you have to educate them. Do you even know anything about mountain people and how people had to go into the Appalachians in the 1960s to basically draw them out and educate and feed and clothe their children? There were still remnants of this in the 80s, which is why I saw dirty skinny children at my elementary school.

    These people are victimized by wealthy people just like anyone else, and it makes no difference what their race is.

    You don't think blacks in Watts don't also want you to get the fuck out of their neighborhood? So are they also willfully ignorant? Since they choose to sell crack and go to prison instead of cooperating by getting a minimum wage job for a fast food chain are they also responsible for their ignorance and poverty?

    Why are you expecting dirt poor, uneducated and possibly brain damaged people to be pleasantly cooperative, as though they were well fed and had a solid home life?

    I also wouldn't say that people in rural areas always aren't interested in being educated. If that were true no one would ever emerge from that background, and sometimes people do.


    True, though there are also a lot of trappings tied up in that that don't equivalate out, either. Money doesn't equal culture, but neither does social class, and social class doesn't guarantee intelligence, and intelligence doesn't equal money. So we also end up with people who think they're the shit because they live in fancy old houses and they have a certain last name, even if they live in towns of only a few thousand, and refuse to welcome new influences and their gifts. The Catholic Church, for instance, which has finally turned a new leaf and is welcoming Latinos because frankly it would be on a rapid path to dying out without them.
    Did you know that most Latinos hate black people, and that Mexicans drive the darkest and most Native American of their own race into dire poverty and out of their own country?

    Did you know that Jewish people in Sherman Oaks and generic upper middle class Randroids from New York also think they're intelligent or the shit because they have money and fancy houses?

    What about Paris Hilton? She's not a Southerner.

    Nothing you're saying about Southerners only pertains to Southerners; you're mainly speaking of Southerners with old money, and not of Southern people in general.


    Actually, I always saw that as more a function of heavily-populated areas. There's an unspoken rule in New York that you don't catch other people's eyes on the subway. It's not because you hate everyone, but because you're so densely packed that you need a different way of maintaining personal space. City people tend to be more brusque, I believe in part because there are so many people to deal with. You can't exactly stop and say hello, how are you to every person you come across during the day when you cross paths with several million. For most people I think it's quite neutral, though of course some people just have to take it to an unfriendly level.
    So New York asshole behavior is excusable but Southern asshole behavior is not?

    Southern xenophobia springs from the fear that city people are going to come and try to take away the land, the peace and quiet, the history, etc.

    They don't to have to live in a place where they can't say hello to people on a subway.

    The deep Republican conservatism in the South also springs from Southern Democrats historically being associated with racism (Republicans were the more racially liberal party once upon a time) and also from the New Deal era when the government bought family properties out from under people in the South in order to build freeways and so forth.

    There are reasons why these people are protective of their culture, and no I'm not saying the racism is justified, but the xenophobia tends to be rooted in things like fearing Starbucks and the yuppies are going to move in and pave their forests and build more beige houses with tract lighting.

  5. #35
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    Geez. You ask opinions and then attack them when they're presented, even if neutrally. I don't have personal attachment to this issue and I'm not siding with anyone. I'm not saying I think it's justified, or necessarily even true. I'm just saying I think that's a major reason why it could be seen as willful. And I included Southern and rural together because I believe those two groups come off as particularly xenophobic, and are both cast in a worse light in contemporary culture because of it.

    Just to be clear, I don't hate Southerners or rural people, nor do I see them as especially deserving of suffering. I understand that xenophobia is a means of self-protection. I also do not see these two groups as the same group, and am not unintentionally conflating. But I do understand why there is frustration, as I have experienced plenty of personally-directed cultural backlash, your above post now included.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I can't say I've ever seen ANYONE in my entire family fly a confederate flag. Ever. Not even once.
    Do they still call us yankees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    No one talks about that. How many Southerners are Irish, and how the Irish are the (for lack of a more coherent terms) the N___ of Europe.
    Hey watch it there little missy

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Geez. You ask opinions and then attack them when they're presented, even if neutrally. I don't have personal attachment to this issue and I'm not siding with anyone. I'm not saying I think it's justified, or necessarily even true. I'm just saying I think that's a major reason why it could be seen as willful. And I included Southern and rural together because I believe those two groups come off as particularly xenophobic, and are both cast in a worse light in contemporary culture because of it.

    Just to be clear, I don't hate Southerners or rural people, nor do I see them as especially deserving of suffering. I understand that xenophobia is a means of self-protection. I also do not see these two groups as the same group, and am not unintentionally conflating. But I do understand why there is frustration, as I have experienced plenty of personally-directed cultural backlash, your above post now included.
    I am not attacking you, I'm pointing out to you your own bias and you don't like it. You don't like to see that what you're saying about rural Southerners could just as easily be said about Latino or African-Americans and their attitude about their inner city "hoods." You don't walk into their territory; uneducated people who by circumstance have been forced to live at survival level and aren't equipped with the information to rise above it tend to resort to territorial, animalistic behavior. This can be extended to all races. Rural Southern "white trash" don't really behave any differently than minorities living in inner cities on a fundamental level: it's all the same territorial, survival level behavior.

    I'm also pointing out to you that pride over money and houses can extend to many parts of the country and cultural groups.

    How is that a personal attack?

    It's almost like you just don't like the cognitive discomfort I'm causing you, because you're so comfortable with your bias against white Southerners.

    It's almost like you don't like that I'm showing you that people of varying races and cultural groups will behave like animals on survival level, and many will also act like snotty assholes when given excessive privilege.

    This is the real key out of racism. To realize that all people are the same, and you're blinded by cultural differences, or by saying it's worse when white people do it, or more understandable when New Yorkers do it instead of when people from Alabama do it.

    I'm also explaining to you bits and pieces of the history of the South, and why Southerners are xenophobic and that they do have reasonable concerns when it comes to land and culture, even if many of them are expressing it in an unpleasant manner.

  8. #38
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    Oh for God's sake. Fine, I'll dissect it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am not attacking you, I'm pointing out to you your own bias and you don't like it. You don't like to see that what you're saying about rural Southerners could just as easily be said about Latino or African-Americans and their attitude about their inner city "hoods."
    No, I agree with you. But you asked about rural groups, and my personal experience has been mostly with rural and Southern groups, often together, so I described those experiences.

    You don't walk into their territory; uneducated people who by circumstance have been forced to live at survival level and aren't equipped with the information to rise above it tend to resort to territorial, animalistic behavior. This can be extended to all races. Rural Southern "white trash" don't really behave any differently than minorities living in inner cities on a fundamental level: it's all the same territorial, survival level behavior.
    Sure, I agree. Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

    I'm also pointing out to you that pride over money and houses can extend to many parts of the countries and cultural groups.
    Yes, that's true.

    How is that a personal attack?
    Because you're attaching value where I don't feel any.

    It's almost like you just don't like the cognitive discomfort I'm causing you, because you're so comfortable with your bias against white Southerners.
    Except you're not really causing me discomfort for any reason except you're implying value judgment where I don't feel it.

    It's almost like you don't like that I'm showing you that people of varying races and cultural groups will behave like animals on survival level, and many will also act like snotty assholes when given excessive privilege.
    No, I agree with that.

    This is the real key out of racism. To realize that all people are the same, and you're blinded by cultural differences, or by saying it's worse when white people do it, or more understandable when New Yorkers do it instead of when people from Alabama do it.
    I described my viewpoint through my eyes because that is the only set of eyes I have. I cannot see the issue through Southern or rural eyes because I am not of Southern or rural descent. I have not said that Southern behavior is worse, only that I natively understand Northern behavior instead because I was raised in that culture. I also said that rural Southern behavior seems more personal because there is more time and space for it, not because it is intentional; I deliberately made it clear that I do not personally blame rural Southerners for that difference. My viewpoint may make me biased, but it does not make me bigoted. I have made no value judgments.

    I'm also explaining to you bits and pieces of the history of the South, and why Southerners are xenophobic and that they do have reasonable concerns when it comes to land and culture, even if many of them are expressing it in an unpleasant manner.
    Which is great, except having gone to school in the Appalachian mountains, I've read books, watched documentaries, listened to speakers, interacted with people whose families are from these areas, and studied textbooks covering Southern, rural Southern, and Appalachian culture, in addition to actually living there. I have been educated in the history a pretty decent amount and feel like I have a fairly good grip on it, as much as an outsider can. Still, just because you understand why someone is hurting you doesn't necessarily make it hurt any less.

    I figure it's easy to question why people are "so mean" to a certain group when you haven't been ostracized by that group your entire life. And it's easy for me to see why people would dislike rural Southerners, because I have been ostracized by them my entire life for reasons I have had no control over. They have made me feel like I don't have a culture and I don't have a home. That's pretty hurtful, honestly.

    Fortunately, I have also had enough good experiences and enough education to make up for the bad. Again I repeat, I can understand why people might feel this way. I'm not saying that I personally feel this way, and I am not saying that anyone deserves blame. If you think that preemptive ostracization isn't a reason rural Southerners are blamed for ignorance, that's fine, but please disagree with my ideas instead disagreeing with value judgments that I haven't made.

  9. #39
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    Thank you for explaining, @skylights and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

    However, I don't think some Southerners are ever going to accept others because they are so fearful of their culture being wiped out. They're only going to accept "help" from people who embrace their culture; any time you make people feel like their culture is "wrong" or "bad" (and the American media collectively does this to Southerners) they will up the ante even more. That applies to any culture that feels real pressure to change its fundamental sense of "self."

    It's one of the liberal defenses I've seen for Russian Nationalism after the death of the USSR.

    After the Civil War, Southern people felt like their entire way of life was being challenged...since you were educated in the South, you surely know that the Civil War wasn't just about slavery: it was about railroads, it was about money, it was about Northern industrialism.

    This is why Southerners probably still resist a lot of signs of "progress." Besides, all "progress" isn't "progress." Southerners actually have a really healthy love of nature and good relationship to the land, and to animals, and to where food comes from, to the four seasons, and to family and to history. They value all of the things that most healthy cultures that have lasted for hundreds or thousands of years also value.

    And protection of culture leads to xenophobia when that culture feels like it's under attack.

    As far as some of these people are concerned, accepting "help" is accepting more pavement, more yuppies, more bland neutralization or corporate Americanization of their rich and colorful culture.

    And as far as I can tell, except for certain pockets of this country, they do have much to fear in this department. American "culture" has been replaced by corporate slogans, advertising, and post-industrialism. The South is still resisting the North, and not necessarily for a bad reason.

    Yes, the epic history of racism is bad; however, the real issue here is people defying you to take their culture from them.

    You must comprehend the Appalachian territorialism, the hatred of middle class people coming in to buy their family heirlooms, the hatred of the coal companies exploiting their land, the Appalachians for the most part aren't as mired in the plantation/slave owner historical narrative, so their struggle is the purest example of people fighting for something actually worth protecting, and representing what the North did WRONG (for example, following the Civil War, they started employing people in factories in the North, where these people often died because of horrific conditions, so now people were free...to be worked to death.)

    So I disagree that Southerners judged other people first; I think it's a chicken-egg scenario, and the aggression comes with any honor culture. I'm sure that you're aware of another honor culture, Japan, where during WWII we dropped an atomic bomb on them because they believed in death before dishonor, and would just keep fighting and fighting until everyone was dead.

    Appalachian people, and the Mountain Party in West Virginia, are actually extremely compatible with the ideas of Anonymous, Occupy Wall Street, and basically everything that young people in this country are trying to turn away from.

    Women from the South tend to be as aggressive and territorial as the men, but on a lower scale, and I'm interested in my own psychological profile and behavior and how it matches up with honor culture traits; therefore I am not "unhealthy" necessarily but simply was raised in a culture where my behavioral patterns don't always match up with beige American social norms, but more so with Southern, and specifically Appalachian, social norms.

  10. #40
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    Some people say that it's the Jews, but really the Jews are extremely proud of themselves. Being total racists themselves and thinking they're God's chosen people, though I'm horrified by the holocaust, they seem to do QUITE WELL for themselves financially and globally and think so much of themselves above "Gentiles" that outside of WWII I don't have a great deal of compassion, and I think this is where a lot of people get uncomfortable like "OMG THE JEWS" and it's like "yes, they're largely richer than you, and think they're better than you if you aren't a Jew. Tell me why you feel sorry for them again?"
    I hope you see the irony in posting this in a thread complaining about stereotyping groups of people.

    now excuse me, I have to tend to my bags of money and attend my bi-weekly Jewish conspiracy group. our topic this week is "defaming rural southern intelligence in the media." I'll let you know how it goes

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