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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    that article took an extremely large number of words to say "the proportion of teachers rated as effective depends entirely on how they've defined the cutoff for 'effective'". Durrrrrrr.

    This is why I don't usually read huge articles you've cut and pasted without any explanation as to why we should read it or what is interesting about the article. Resuming that policy now.
    While I find its much the case with both the left and the right wing, I think its been a more right thing lately to be very verbose about what are simple points that can be summed up in single sentences.

    It used to be something that Marxists did, especially when they were worried that upon closer consideration no one would follow their line of thinking or support their conclusions. I suspect the same thing is at work here.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't know what "just just posting" means but if you're taking your toys and going home, it's not necessary. Just post a link and a quote (and maybe some original thought/reaction of your own would help motivate people to reply).
    Its a little like putting a bumper sticker on your car.

    The more acrimonious discussions become, the more dispute is substituted for debate, the less willing people are to consider and/or accept disagreement or differences of opinion and I find a sort of mood sets in, usually characterised by feelings of persecution and/or defiance, this isnt restricted to Disco and his pet peeves and topics by an stretch of the imagination though.

    Its a bit of a waste of time or effort, I've seen it done lots, I did it myself at a time too but it is a waste of time and effort. Especially when what is imagined could be the response to posted links, or the dogged repition of key points memorised like rote learning, patently isnt.

    A lot of the time when people are reading something and imagining that it is persuasive and enlightened opinion they'd like to share around its more likely just to be "this is opinion I agree with" or "this supports opinions I've already arrived at" and it looks that way when it is shared too.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't know what "just just posting" means but if you're taking your toys and going home, it's not necessary. Just post a link and a quote (and maybe some original thought/reaction of your own would help motivate people to reply).
    Its means I accidentally fucking wrote the word twice.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    A couple of things in response though:-

    Why're the teaching profession subject to such comment in the first place? They're hated by the US right wing as salaried state employees, whatever the results they get that's not really going to change.

    Continual scrutiny of teaching and appraisal of teachers is fair enough, the same sort of considered evaluation of the practice of any professionals, provided it is fair and balanced, seems like a good idea. The problem is that its seldom fair and balanced.

    Teaching is also like a lot of other things too, there's a lot of variables to be considered in any evaluation, most criticisms of teaching and falling academic standards fail to take into account the serious deterioration of the cultural, familial, community and neighbourhood underpinnings which were once taken for granted, often the contrasting of private success with public failure doesnt take this into account either, while private providers can exercise selection and exclusion under economic or financial guises the public services can not do the same and wind up performing a kind of sociological function of "holding" or "containing" individuals for part of the day, babysitting almost, rather than teaching properly.

    I think its a good question because I can easily recall just how varied the motivation, knowledge or skills of teachers I've encountered were, I've never met so many crypto-fascists and authoritarians of the worst order as I have in the teaching profession, equally I've encountered shocking arrogance, individuals who proudly flaunt their own knowledge and learning but pass of the failure to convey the same to others are arising from innate inepitude within the same others. Although this article just reads like so many others which has a predetermined conclusion from the outset and builds up its veracity with lies, damn lies and statistics.

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Its means I accidentally fucking wrote the word twice.
    I know, but I don't know what word you wrote it instead of the second time, so I still don't know what you meant to say. I'm assuming it was "stop" but it could have been "embrace" or "dance while" or "make love to." Those would be very different sentences.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I know, but I don't know what word you wrote it instead of the second time, so I still don't know what you meant to say. I'm assuming it was "stop" but it could have been "embrace" or "dance while" or "make love to." Those would be very different sentences.

  7. #17
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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  8. #18
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Rating teachers on how their students perform on standardized, graded measures sounds like a terrible idea.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Rating teachers on how their students perform on standardized, graded measures sounds like a terrible idea.
    Would you rate an engineer on their ability to design a building that won't collapse for no reason?

    Even if that engineer isn't provided with the budget to procure the absolute best construction materials (like teachers who have to teach in the ghetto), he (if he is at least a journeyman of his trade) can still design a building that's up to code and will stand (even if it wont stand as long as one build with better material).

  10. #20
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    That's not a great analogy, IMO. An engineer is solely responsible for the design of the building. If the engineer only has access to the building designs for 6 hours a day, and for the other 18 hours a day other engineers (some good, some bad) have access to those designs, the end result is going to depend a lot on whether the engineers who have those designs for the other 18 hours are supporting or undermining the engineer's work. It would be ridiculous to put the sole responsibility for the outcome of the building on the engineer who only provided 1/4 of the total time spent on the designs.

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