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  1. #41
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Hipsters still infest society, so no. Postmodernism isn't dead.
    Ah, but is postmodernity dead?

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    It does. I don't know how that follows from what I stated. I suppose I didn't phrase it adequately.

    I'm wondering if we are in post-postmodernism. if we are not, the reason why it is even a matter of debate is because we experience some symptoms of postmodernity. These symptoms may exist because of the stress post-postmodernism has pushed on society. While postmodernism moves us, and while postmodernism could reasonably regarded as a grand narrative (though, not all that grant), it could ever be a voice of authority because it is essentially void of forthcoming habit or structure.

    I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again - Postmodernism is typically pushed by a subgroup of liberals, yet, because of what you were describing, postmodernity is, in effect, conservative and regressive. That is to say that, since an extreme postmodernist can't put forth any genuine, logical arguments, no solutions can be spoken of. Ideals crumble around deconstructed reason. If the postmodernist is to really think about this dilemma as an actual problem, then he/she must realize that they are at square one like everyone else is in terms of how they correspond with the world they conceptualize.

    It makes sense that the unemployed (such as myself) would ease into postmodern attitudes for this very reason, seeing as employment demands constructive cooperation, whether it be from an employer or an employee.
    I think if we call what we are in now "post-postmodernism", it would be an even worse phenomenon. I don't think this era needs to be "responding" to postmodernism. I think, in some sense, my own thread, and things like it, is about as much acknowledgement this next age will give to postmodernism, and that most people (as others have mentioned), just don't care.

    If we were to characterize this "age", it would be "authenticism" or something along those lines. I was initially thinking "neoneorealism", which, though not as bad as post-postmodernism, is still a strange revision or "reaction" or "reflection" of a previous age.

    I think what we have is different. We embrace the raw and honest and straightforward, not because we are enamored with "turth" or anything of the sort, but because we are sick of everything else. We look for honesty and frankness in writing (basically reading peoples diaries/journals in blogs). We are returning to "real foods". Movies with little or no production values can be immensely successful if the story and content is good. Fantasy is acknowledged, in full form, to be fantasy. "Hollywood" is kind of a derogatory term.

    We have kind of tried all the formulas and monisms. I think we are returning to simpler things, but with they ability to embrace complexity where we see benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    How do you see it differently?
    Quantitative analysis is just another form of expression or description. If someone makes a painting, does that inherently bound anything to anything else? If someone writes a poem, does that create a bound? If someone criticizes a movie, does that bound everyone to something?

    I can make a quantitative description of how fast people would have to run to stop the world from spinning, for instance. I could build in all sorts of assumptions that had nothing to do with anything. Does this all of a sudden mean that what I say using these numbers mean anything to anyone beyond my own musings? Does me doing a quantitative analysis, bound anyone to anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Oh, that is not what I am arguing. I am merely advocating that quantitative analysis be interpreted not as literally.
    Who is it that interprets quantitative analysis literally? I am, in fact, advocating a very similar thing to what you are. What I am saying in addition is, "Post-modernists, you've made your point. It's time to move on."

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Yes, I agree. I am merely warning against not seeing the forest for the trees. As magic poriferan noted earlier you can represent anything using math, however as you noted the degree to which this is an exercise in symbolic logic and where it stops correlating with reality is often long before that point. However, it is important to remember that as of right now, we know we are wrong because the best models we have of reality explicitly do not correlate with observation at certain points. So, it should be obvious that we need new methodology of formal representation in order to better represent reality. To me, that method is obvious, recreation of the system we are observing physically (where possible). This is obviously difficult in physics with "larger questions" because we do not have the energy capacity to recreate the formal system. However, we can possibly begin to recreate complex biological systems with trillions of components computationally by modelling them (such as weather systems, mega ant colonies, and the human brain). Whenever we have a limit that we are pushing against theoretically, it is just an opportunity to practice applied science in order to find contradictions in our models so we can eliminate false leads.
    Lol. What is it that you think I am doing in my PhD program? Barring the sentence about "new methodology", you have described my long-term goals as a scientist, almost to the letter. How is it that you believe that I am advocating something different than what you describe?

    Relevant classes this quarter:
    Bioenergetics and Metabolism
    Special Topics in Physical Chemistry: Classical and Ab-Initio Molecular Dynamics Simulation with application to renewable energy
    Natural Computation and Self Organization

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I think they have been doing it in theory in labs and so forth, but I do not think for most they interact with the world in a moral, aesthetic, or tactile way that is in concert with their theoretical understanding. I think this acts as a block to integration of this experience as reality.
    Can you clarify this? Because, I think this the second time in a short while that I have found that I am in almost complete agreement with most of your assertions, but still somehow in disagreement with the spirit of what you are saying.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #43
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think if we call what we are in now "post-postmodernism", it would be an even worse phenomenon. I don't think this era needs to be "responding" to postmodernism. I think, in some sense, my own thread, and things like it, is about as much acknowledgement this next age will give to postmodernism, and that most people (as others have mentioned), just don't care.

    If we were to characterize this "age", it would be "authenticism" or something along those lines. I was initially thinking "neoneorealism", which, though not as bad as post-postmodernism, is still a strange revision or "reaction" or "reflection" of a previous age.

    I think what we have is different. We embrace the raw and honest and straightforward, not because we are enamored with "turth" or anything of the sort, but because we are sick of everything else. We look for honesty and frankness in writing (basically reading peoples diaries/journals in blogs). We are returning to "real foods". Movies with little or no production values can be immensely successful if the story and content is good. Fantasy is acknowledged, in full form, to be fantasy. "Hollywood" is kind of a derogatory term.

    We have kind of tried all the formulas and monisms. I think we are returning to simpler things, but with they ability to embrace complexity where we see benefit.


    I see it wish a sense of solace, with an impending outrageous enthusiasm. I see it as a source of inspiration and humor about our condition.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I see it wish a sense of solace, with an impending outrageous enthusiasm. I see it as a source of inspiration and humor about our condition.
    Postmodernism?

    I must admit, that sentiment drew me in too. But it is a trap. Once reality sets is, postmodernism is like a drug that you'll need to detox from.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #45
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Postmodernism?

    I must admit, that sentiment drew me in too. But it is a trap. Once reality sets is, postmodernism is like a drug that you'll need to detox from.
    No. Post-postmodernism. Postmodernism is for sophists.

  6. #46
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Ah, but is postmodernity dead?
    I didn't know there was a difference?

  7. #47
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I didn't know there was a difference?
    Postmodernity is not a philosophy, but a condition we experience as a consequence of postmodernism that gives birth to our activities, art, architecture, and technology.

  8. #48
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Postmodernity is not a philosophy, but a condition we experience as a consequence of postmodernism that gives birth to our activities, art, architecture, and technology.
    I see. Examples? I hate to think this stuff is inadvertently affecting me.

    It seems like a movement based on an inability to cope with the many ideas of the modern world. I definite it negatively. Fear of taking any kind of stand, etc.. I understand tolerance, but being tolerant doesn't mean you can't stand for anything.

  9. #49
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I see. Examples? I hate to think this stuff is inadvertently affecting me.

    It seems like a movement based on an inability to cope with the many ideas of the modern world. I definite it negatively. Fear of taking any kind of stand, etc.. I understand tolerance, but being tolerant doesn't mean you can't stand for anything.
    Architecture


    Art


    Fashion

  10. #50
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Pointy ends and impracticality?

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