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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And I am saying that the biggest welfare recipients out there are profitable multinational corporations and until that is addressed I think it's ridiculous to worry that those of us that are scrabbling for crumbs that fall from their tables might be getting slightly larger crumbs than we deserve.

    I promise you that someone earning $11K/year and raking in every kind of assistance they are eligible for is not living high on the hog. Based on taxable income, my family is right at 130% of the poverty line. We paid cash for our house so we don't have a mortgage or rent and we don't have car or credit card payments and it's still not a cake walk. Someone making ten or twenty thousand more a year than we are, especially in a high cost of living area could still legitimately use a some help with health insurance and/or rent. They certainly need it a lot more than the Walton family does. Not that it doesn't all end up right back in the pockets of folks like them anyway.
    Tax, entitlement and health care reform would address most (possibly all) of that.

    Tax reform, not to mention the strength of the "end too big to fail" narrative in the national conscience will deal with the corporations. Their hand outs are are already on the chopping block.

    We've already got a few proposals floating around to end oil/farm/corporate subsidies.

    I would be quite surprised if they finished 2013 unscathed.

    The issue I have with your pronouncement is that entitlements should not be touched until corporate tax breaks are dealt with.

    We've gotta do it all at the same time.

    The fact that seems to escape you is that we won't be able to fix our financial predicament without reforming entitlements.

    We all have to sacrifice. The tax hike on top level earners and reducing military funding was our sacrifice.

    We are willing to consider more revenues when you are really ready to put entitlements on the table.

    Unless the Democrats and entitlement spending want to be painted as no better than the Republicans with the no tax pledge.

    If you guys were serious about taxes you would have proposed ending all the Bush tax cuts.

  2. #62
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Tax, entitlement and health care reform would address most (possibly all) of that.

    Tax reform, not to mention the strength of the "end too big to fail" narrative in the national conscience will deal with the corporations. Their hand outs are are already on the chopping block.

    We've already got a few proposals floating around to end oil/farm/corporate subsidies.

    I would be quite surprised if they finished 2013 unscathed.

    The issue I have with your pronouncement is that entitlements should not be touched until corporate tax breaks are dealt with.

    We've gotta do it all at the same time.

    The fact that seems to escape you is that we won't be able to fix our financial predicament without reforming entitlements.

    We all have to sacrifice. The tax hike on top level earners and reducing military funding was our sacrifice.

    We are willing to consider more revenues when you are really ready to put entitlements on the table.

    Unless the Democrats and entitlement spending want to be painted as no better than the Republicans with the no tax pledge.

    If you guys were serious about taxes you would have proposed ending all the Bush tax cuts.
    I'm more Peace and Freedom than democrat, but in our two-party system, it's not a real choice. I propose we end all the Bush tax cuts.

    And no, don't think that people that can barely feed and house themselves need to pay higher taxes because people that have multiple houses might have to pay a couple percentage points more in taxes. That's Sheriff of Nottingham thinking.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm more Peace and Freedom than democrat, but in our two-party system, it's not a real choice. I propose we end all the Bush tax cuts.

    And no, don't think that people that can barely feed and house themselves need to pay higher taxes because people that have multiple houses might have to pay a couple percentage points more in taxes. That's Sheriff of Nottingham thinking.
    Do the tax hikes that have already occurred on them not count?

    If we raise their taxes, and the left will still argue that their taxes aren't high enough, why should we even play that game.

    Feel free to mess with the corporate tax structure, or deductions, but this class warfare garbage has to end.

    It's making our political process worse.

    Before any more revenues are raised disproportionally from the wealthy, ask everyone else to take their turn having their taxes raised.

    What's unbalanced is deceiving the populace into believing that taxing the rich can hope to fix our problems.

  4. #64
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What's unbalanced is deceiving the populace into believing that taxing the rich can hope to fix our problems.
    It's not about deception. The problem is real and one people experience day-in, day-out. The root of the problem is inflation. The lower classes can't keep up with it, while the wealthy remain secure (beyond secure). Minimum wage in 1950, for example, was 75cents an hour. It sounds paltry, but the market itself allowed opportunity for even these low earnings. Rent would be around $40. That's a little over 50 hours of work. A week of work, for many people. A movie ticket: 50 Cents. Less than half an hour of work.

    Lets go to 2010. Minimum wage: $7.25. Rent is around $700-800 (give or take). Over a 100 hours of work, at least. A movie ticket: $8. Over an hour of work for your escapist entertainment needs. Might as well just pirate films, like most do. In any case, costs have doubled. Wages haven't. And forget about it if you live in a bigger city like NYC. Rent is over $1000. Anyone making money like this is crammed into a small space with with their relatives or friends (of course, min wage is higher in NYC, but still sucks).

    This goes without mentioning the amount of GIs after World War II, who benefited from entitlements like the GI Bill, got degrees, had opportunity to open small businesses, and could singlehandedly support a family. It effectively skyrocketed the middle class, and gave us the "traditional" image of the so called American Dream. None of this shit is possible now. We all want to "believe" in this dream, but dreams are fucking worthless. It took generous policies that made it happen.

  5. #65
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do the tax hikes that have already occurred on them not count?

    If we raise their taxes, and the left will still argue that their taxes aren't high enough, why should we even play that game.

    Feel free to mess with the corporate tax structure, or deductions, but this class warfare garbage has to end.

    It's making our political process worse.

    Before any more revenues are raised disproportionally from the wealthy, ask everyone else to take their turn having their taxes raised.

    What's unbalanced is deceiving the populace into believing that taxing the rich can hope to fix our problems.
    This is dumb. There's so many other nations who have "proof of concept" systems that your argument is only functioning with a small audience. When your argument only works on (not even all of the) American Republicans, rather than because of its logic, then you've got a logic problem.

    C'mon, Discobiscuit. You're not dumb. Stop enacting the confirmation bias problem with your reading & thinking.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #66
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Do the tax hikes that have already occurred on them not count?

    If we raise their taxes, and the left will still argue that their taxes aren't high enough, why should we even play that game.

    Feel free to mess with the corporate tax structure, or deductions, but this class warfare garbage has to end.

    It's making our political process worse.

    Before any more revenues are raised disproportionally from the wealthy, ask everyone else to take their turn having their taxes raised.

    What's unbalanced is deceiving the populace into believing that taxing the rich can hope to fix our problems.
    Pfft! I'm not a rocket scientist, but I am literate. I can't really keep the rich from crapping in my hand and telling me it's chocolate, but the rich pointing to some other poor schmuck and telling me he's getting more 'chocolate' than I am isn't going to convince me it's chocolate.

    The stuff you're saying could have just about come from the potato famine where there was enough food to feed every man, woman, and child four times over and people were dying of starvation at the side of the road. It's no more true now than it was then.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #67
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    The US doesnt seem to be ranking ahead in a lot of things lately, certainly not the US rank and file anyway.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    This is dumb.
    How?

    There's so many other nations who have "proof of concept" systems
    The existence of one solution to a problem does not make that solution the only solution.

    Especially when that solution requires a level of spending that would further shorten the already closing window of our solvency.

    that your argument is only functioning with a small audience
    Which you can prove how?

    When your argument only works on (not even all of the) American Republicans, rather than because of its logic, then you've got a logic problem.
    That sounds like a popularity problem.

    C'mon, Discobiscuit. You're not dumb.
    You got that right.

    Stop enacting the confirmation bias problem with your reading & thinking.
    Stop ignoring the substantive nature of my issues with the current legislative paradigm.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Pfft! I'm not a rocket scientist, but I am literate. I can't really keep the rich from crapping in my hand and telling me it's chocolate, but the rich pointing to some other poor schmuck and telling me he's getting more 'chocolate' than I am isn't going to convince me it's chocolate.

    The stuff you're saying could have just about come from the potato famine where there was enough food to feed every man, woman, and child four times over and people were dying of starvation at the side of the road. It's no more true now than it was then.
    There's not even anything worth responding to here.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The US doesnt seem to be ranking ahead in a lot of things lately, certainly not the US rank and file anyway.
    That's what happens when you get so wrapped up in the political pissing contest that you forget to update your legislative portfolio to take into consideration changing global conditions.

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