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  1. #31
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Neglect at the hands of a distant parent of either gender is a mild form of abuse. The problem is not that you suffered from a lack of male influence, but rather that the influential male in your life was passively abusive.

    It would be easier to sympathize with you if you didn't use your daddy issues as ammunition in your anti-gay stance.
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  2. #32
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Neglect at the hands of a distant parent of either gender is a mild form of abuse. The problem is not that you suffered from a lack of male influence, but rather that the influential male in your life was passively abusive.
    When a parent neglects a child they are withholding themselves from the child. You can't sit behind a computer and tell me that whatever it was that my father was withholding from me that none of it had to do with his teaching me about being a male or that I didn't need any input from him when it comes to what it means to be a man. There are obviously other aspects to neglect and passive abuse, but you can't scalpel out the gender identity and all that goes with it and claim none of that matters. I guarantee you that a neglectful mother is going to have a different impact than a neglectful father. Both will have negative impacts, but they will have different impacts.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The point is that it's within a made-up context and as soon as you zoom out to the larger context of your reality it doesn't matter what we pretend matters. Broadly speaking we can weave meaning into things, place value on things, and determine consequences, but the content of any of those things doesn't matter or we can just not do any of those things.

    Let me add this example: In monopoly everyone pretends the money matters within the context of the game. Everyone looks down on steeling in monopoly. But, it's just a game and it doesn't really matter in the broader context of reality. To me, within your own view you're just playing a pretend game when you talk about the welfare of children.
    It certainly is a game, but of the inescapable kind that lasts a lifetime. You can see how seriously I treat even this apparently pointless discussion on an internet forum. Just imagine how much more serious I am when it comes to real-life issues I care about. And if that be not enough to hear a man talking, then, in good faith, I long not to talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Actually I do think there is moral value in art in that it is part of an effort to pursue the good, true and beautiful. A good movie isn't merely pleasing to me, but is a demonstration of real beauty, real goodness, and real truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    This is actually a really good question and I have to think about it. Off the top of my head my inclination is that the well being of a child is directly related to the child being treated as a human child which brings in all the issues surrounding what it means to human. That is, a child is brought up with his or her soul, body, and mind nurtured so that the child is prepared to pursue the true, the good, and the beautiful within the context of his or her family and community according to the child's rights and duties.
    Do you grant parents the right to choose their religion or is only your interpretation of the true, the good, and the beautiful permissible? And what are a child's rights and duties?

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    As someone who grew up with a very detached father I find your comments very belittling of my own desire for a significant male influence in my life. Dribbling, shaving, and talking to women are just representative of a larger missing male influence.
    No family is ideal. There are many sources of male influence for children lacking an involved male parent, just as there are sources of female influence for children lacking an involved female parent. Single/widowed parents have always known this. Moreover, children with two traditional opposite-sex biological parents frequently benefit from the influence of other adults who show them different ways to be male, female, and many other things.

    If we are going to exclude same-sex couples from parenthood on the grounds that the example of one biological sex is absent in the home, we might as well outlaw single parenthood and divorce. We should also examine opposite-sex couples to identify those where either parent is unable to provide a suitable male/female influence due to abuse, neglect, or simple personal issues. All these family situations are even less ideal than two caring, responsible same-sex parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    This is actually a really good question and I have to think about it. Off the top of my head my inclination is that the well being of a child is directly related to the child being treated as a human child which brings in all the issues surrounding what it means to human. That is, a child is brought up with his or her soul, body, and mind nurtured so that the child is prepared to pursue the true, the good, and the beautiful within the context of his or her family and community according to the child's rights and duties.
    How is a same-sex couple unable to provide this? Also, what determines a child's "rights and duties"?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    My dad taught me how to dribble. Maybe a bit too much. He was a 6'7" power forward in his day, and his post game rubbed off on me. I learned to play with my back, roughly, with hook shots, etc.. Only I grew up shorter. He thought I'd be as tall as him, but I ended up more of a guard size. I didn't learn many guard moves early on. I taught myself a faster game, crossovers, finesse, etc.. But I was already old at this point. I never became that good at them (and I'm still not). Point being though, dads have a way of turning you into small versions of themselves, and not always teaching what's good for you specifically (not that that's bad either, but there are drawbacks).

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No family is ideal. There are many sources of male influence for children lacking an involved male parent, just as there are sources of female influence for children lacking an involved female parent. Single/widowed parents have always known this. Moreover, children with two traditional opposite-sex biological parents frequently benefit from the influence of other adults who show them different ways to be male, female, and many other things.

    If we are going to exclude same-sex couples from parenthood on the grounds that the example of one biological sex is absent in the home, we might as well outlaw single parenthood and divorce. We should also examine opposite-sex couples to identify those where either parent is unable to provide a suitable male/female influence due to abuse, neglect, or simple personal issues. All these family situations are even less ideal than two caring, responsible same-sex parents.
    Exactly. It's difficult to glamorize opposite-sex parents because there is a large difference between the "ideal" being promoted and practical reality. We're not even discussing the abuses here in het parenting -- just that in reality in general even with decent parents, that the glamorized opposite-sex parenting relationship with their kids is not really manifestly "better."

    In addition:
    1. Whether opposite-sex or not, married couples typically split up a lot of the roles and duties, whether along gender lines or not, so that everything is eventually covered. (To whit, one parent takes up the traditional feminine duties, the other typically handles the more masculine ones.) This doesn't have to be based on genitalia; typically it happens naturally in both the spousal relationship as well as the parent-child relationship. So the kids are still getting what they need from their parents regarding of their individual gender statuses.

    2. Concrete tasks are not confined to one gender. Do we think because a woman doesn't have to shave her face, she can't talk to someone and/or figure out how to shave and teach her son how to do it effective? Or that, out of love for her son, she can't teach herself how to tie a tie or dribble a basketball? Or that a male parent can't handle his daughter's practical needs, when necessary? Do we think adults are all functional morons in their ability to learn new skills, especially when their children are involved? (Let alone all those men in het marriages who can't dribble a basketball and women in het marriages who can't bake a cake, but for some reason that's being completely overlooked.)

    3. Decent parents do not lock a child up in the house. When they sense a need in their child that they can't actually fulfill, they get others to help. And they also typically allow a child to socially interact with other children and adults. Hillary Clinton took a lot of unfair flack from her notion that "it takes a village," but really, a little bit of communal thinking goes a long way and I think is part of healthy people engaging their community. If there are things your dad or mom can't do and you wanted to do them, then either you or they will find another adult to teach you; that's normally how things are handled in "het marriages" and it's the same for gay marriage as well.

    How is a same-sex couple unable to provide this? Also, what determines a child's "rights and duties"?
    That's the big problem here. Comments like that unfairly ascribe positive and meaningful love and contribution by parents to one particular gender or gender pairing, when the reality (if one just opens their eyes) is that PARENTS are capable of this regardless of their gender or gender-pairing.

    ---

    I have to say also that, while I have no control over where a thread goes (alas), I specifically designed my OP to talk about Obama and the political angle on him choosing to come out in support of gay marriage NOW rather than later. I specifically wanted to avoid a rehash of the same old arguments about whether gay marriage is as good as het marriage, or the moral nature of gay marriage. Haven't we already heard all these same arguments 15 zillion times in the past?

    Yet, particular individuals have once again derailed the thread because they just can't get off their soapbox about why gay marriage is wrong or bad. This thread wasn't about that, it was supposed to be about Obama's shifting position on the issue and whether it makes sense.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoseColoredGlasses
    a child is brought up with his or her soul, body, and mind nurtured so that the child is prepared to pursue the true, the good, and the beautiful within the context of his or her family and community according to the child's rights and duties.
    Kids have the shit kicked out of them by alcoholic parents, fathers raping daughters, brothers raping sisters, sisters raping brothers, parents whoring out their daughters to the highest bidders and buying off judges when they get caught. Yes, June and Ward, it's a Beaver Cleaver community. Isn't it good and beautiful?

  8. #38
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Kids have the shit kicked out of them by alcoholic parents, fathers raping daughters, brothers raping sisters, sisters raping brothers, parents whoring out their daughters to the highest bidders and buying off judges when they get caught. Yes, June and Ward, it's a Beaver Cleaver community. Isn't it good and beautiful?
    lol.. and here I was thinking it was bad enough that "Dad taught me to dribble like a Forward instead of a Guard."

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yet, particular individuals have once again derailed the thread because they just can't get off their soapbox about why gay marriage is wrong or bad. This thread wasn't about that, it was supposed to be about Obama's shifting position on the issue and whether it makes sense.
    It seems less that Obama's own position changed, and more that his willingness to expend political capital on the issue shifted.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #40
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It certainly is a game, but of the inescapable kind that lasts a lifetime. You can see how seriously I treat even this apparently pointless discussion on an internet forum. Just imagine how much more serious I am when it comes to real-life issues I care about. And if that be not enough to hear a man talking, then, in good faith, I long not to talk.
    But, that just makes you (and me) pedantic.


    Okay... A good blowjob?
    ???

    Yeah, you don't understand me either.
    I see intrinsic value in everything so I either want to recognize the value in something as good or recognize the distorted value in something as bad.


    Do you grant parents the right to choose their religion or is only your interpretation of the true, the good, and the beautiful permissible? And what are a child's rights and duties?
    Just as important as what is good and bad is the issue of jurisdiction and proper authority. I give the greatest amount of jurisdictional authority to parents in the rearing of their children so yes Parent's should be free to choose their own religion.

    Most of the rights and duties relate to the parental relationship. Most basically children have a right to be free of crimes against their person. Their most basic duty would be obedience to their parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No family is ideal. There are many sources of male influence for children lacking an involved male parent, just as there are sources of female influence for children lacking an involved female parent. Single/widowed parents have always known this. Moreover, children with two traditional opposite-sex biological parents frequently benefit from the influence of other adults who show them different ways to be male, female, and many other things.
    All that is true. But, none of that changes the fact tha the whole reason why we sanction marriage to begin with is the societal recognition that one mother and one father is ideal. That's why we outlawed past changes to marriage like polygamy. As a society we knew shit happens, but we still wanted to promote the ideal.

    If we are going to exclude same-sex couples from parenthood on the grounds that the example of one biological sex is absent in the home, we might as well outlaw single parenthood and divorce. We should also examine opposite-sex couples to identify those where either parent is unable to provide a suitable male/female influence due to abuse, neglect, or simple personal issues. All these family situations are even less ideal than two caring, responsible same-sex parents.
    Well, I am consistent in my stance against no-fault divorce as the whole point of marriage as a covenant with the community kind of goes out the window when people can mutually end a marriage any time they want based on irreconcilable differences.

    As for the rest of your suggestions they presume the radical LGBT movement mindset of social engineering and revising what has worked for centuries in an effort to achieve utopia. I'm not trying to make a perfect society. I'm just trying to preserve the good societal institutions we already have.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    My dad taught me how to dribble. Maybe a bit too much. He was a 6'7" power forward in his day, and his post game rubbed off on me. I learned to play with my back, roughly, with hook shots, etc.. Only I grew up shorter. He thought I'd be as tall as him, but I ended up more of a guard size. I didn't learn many guard moves early on. I taught myself a faster game, crossovers, finesse, etc.. But I was already old at this point. I never became that good at them (and I'm still not). Point being though, dads have a way of turning you into small versions of themselves, and not always teaching what's good for you specifically (not that that's bad either, but there are drawbacks).
    Well I don't really have a good complaint personally when it comes to my father's lack of athletic influence on me. The only sport my dad was ever any good at was cricket and that's not going to be any use for an American kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Kids have the shit kicked out of them by alcoholic parents, fathers raping daughters, brothers raping sisters, sisters raping brothers, parents whoring out their daughters to the highest bidders and buying off judges when they get caught. Yes, June and Ward, it's a Beaver Cleaver community. Isn't it good and beautiful?
    Uh... where did this come from?

    I'm a conservative. I'm not the one with rose colored glasses trying to social engineer the perfect society without regard for the consequences... that's the LGBT movement. When I talk about pursuing the good, true and beautiful I'm not talking about some ridiculous 50s pipe dream I'm merely talking about preserving and building upon the things we know already are good, true, and beautiful already. Marriage is one of those things. No matter how much it sucks or how dysfunctional a relationship is (within some limits, obviously) if a husband and a wife are committed to each other the good and beauty that comes out of that is amazing. I've seen it with my own eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I have to say also that, while I have no control over where a thread goes (alas), I specifically designed my OP to talk about Obama and the political angle on him choosing to come out in support of gay marriage NOW rather than later. I specifically wanted to avoid a rehash of the same old arguments about whether gay marriage is as good as het marriage, or the moral nature of gay marriage. Haven't we already heard all these same arguments 15 zillion times in the past?

    Yet, particular individuals have once again derailed the thread because they just can't get off their soapbox about why gay marriage is wrong or bad. This thread wasn't about that, it was supposed to be about Obama's shifting position on the issue and whether it makes sense.
    Your passive aggressiveness is not appreciated. Obviously you weren't paying attention to the discussion or your bias doesn't allow you to see what plainly goes on in threads like this. I had no interest in a rehash. I made a small post making a political distinction and got dragged into a larger discussion with questions and arguments from a number of people.

    However, I'm more than happy to make this my last post.

    Again, if people seriously want to know the arguments for marriage and against any revision of what marriage constitutes I would encourage them to read this article by Princeton Professor Robert P. George in the Harvard Law and Public Policy Journal.
    http://www.harvard-jlpp.com/wp-conte...eorgeFinal.pdf
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