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  1. #21
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Nico, you forget yourself.
    Not at all. It seems you still fail to understand me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The minute you claim that what is "good" or "bad" matters you contradict your own materialist atheistic beliefs. You have preferences and that is all you have according to your own beliefs.
    What is good or bad has nothing to do with absolutes. It is instead, as you say, determined by preferences, goals, standards. That, of course, does not preclude common threads among people. So there is no contradiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Stop pretending that what is "good" or "bad" matters outside the context of your own preferences.
    I am not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean what I gather, I fail to see where I did pretend that what is "good" or "bad" matters outside the context of my own preferences.

    Silly as this diversion is, I am glad you chose to this line of reasoning, as it suggests to me that you see the error in pursuing the former one.

  2. #22
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Not at all. It seems you still fail to understand me.
    It seems you fail you understand yourself.

    What is good or bad has nothing to do with absolutes. It is instead, as you say, determined by preferences, goals, standards. That, of course, does not preclude common threads among people. So there is no contradiction.
    Yes, and according to you those preferences can be for anything and yet labeled "good." So why should I assume that what you think is good for a child is what I think is good for a child? That language is dripping in values and I don't think you should use it in the same way I do. I think you should be far more explicit that you are merely trying to meet certain ends that are a personal preference.


    I am not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean what I gather, I fail to see where I did pretend that what is "good" or "bad" matters outside the context of my own preferences.
    How can I prove something is "good" or "bad" for a child according to you? I can perhaps prove that one thing leads to another, but whether that is good or bad is up to your own brain chemicals as I can't prove that.

    Even if there is a common thread amongst people's brain chemicals there is no reason why that matters or why I should heed it.

    Silly as this diversion is, I am glad you chose to this line of reasoning, as it suggests to me that you see the error in pursuing the former one.
    Somehow, I thought you would take this cheap shot. I'll argue those points with other people if they want. But, it's pointless to do so with you because with you all your arguments are just chemical reactions in your brain no more important than a rain drop in a puddle of mud. I won't assist you in your self-delusion that you can actually have meaningful argumentation on top of a meaningless worldview.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Somehow, I thought you would take this cheap shot. I'll argue those points with other people if they want. But, it's pointless to do so with you because with you all your arguments are just chemical reactions in your brain no more important than a rain drop in a puddle of mud. I won't assist you in your self-delusion that you can actually have meaningful argumentation on top of a meaningless worldview.
    All your arguments are just chemical reactions in your brain no more important than a rain drop in a puddle of mud as well; that is, they have no transcendental meaning or purpose. They just are. But they matter in the context of this discussion, because we as thinking beings weave meaning and importance, place value on things, hold different opinions and care about consequences. So, in other words, I can have meaningful argumentation on top of a 'meaningless worldview' (bad phrasing), but meaningful in a different, in an empirical way. Kant called himself a transcendental idealist but an empirical realist. It is somewhat like that.

    When I take part in discussions like this, though, I try to use words other people can understand, so that the conclusions we may or may not come to actually mean something. When I say 'good' in the context of this discussion, I do mean something similar to what most people mean, though perhaps my concept of good education involves a little less blind faith than yours. 'Good' and 'bad', however, are not your words; they do not have inherent religious connotations. Or have you never seen a good movie?

    You know that I will not provide arguments to prove to you that children growing up in same-sex families fulfill all your moral demands, but that is simply because some of them are bullshit. What I can provide is arguments to prove that such children have the potential to live happy lives, meaning that same-sex marriage can offer a chance for that portion of the wellbeing of children that we both can agree on.

    Perhaps I should add a question: How do you really define the wellbeing of children?

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    I'd like to think he's doing it because he believes it's the right/humane thing to do and not because he thought it was a good political move. Considering siding with minorities is politically risky (because they are a minority), I'm guessing that is the case.
    I agree with that in terms of what I perceive his values are.

    My point was only really at this point in time, it seems sensible to take the risk because of how it's trending, vs let's say ten years ago or earlier. Taking this stance really won't hurt him at all, and there's a potential for it having a large payoff... if one is merely looking at it as "betting odds."

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is amazing that gay marriage has had such strong opposition from republicans for so long. They claim to be the party of less government interference. Former senator Olympia Snowe was one of the first republicans I heard to publically make this point.
    That part is quite a contradiction, although I've send cartoonists making fun of that discrepancy for a long time now.
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  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That part is quite a contradiction, although I've send cartoonists making fun of that discrepancy for a long time now.
    Such cognitive dissonance is ancient. I think the stuff that takes the cake for me is Confederate American writings on liberty and slavery.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    People who want the government to sanction their activity are not people who want to be left alone.
    So heterosexual couples who want the government to sanction their commitment to each other and to their children, do not want to be left alone? At least you are being internally consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Yes, and according to you those preferences can be for anything and yet labeled "good." So why should I assume that what you think is good for a child is what I think is good for a child? That language is dripping in values and I don't think you should use it in the same way I do. I think you should be far more explicit that you are merely trying to meet certain ends that are a personal preference.
    Yes, the idea of "a good life" is subjective, and highly influenced by values. I would say a child has been raised to have a good life if he/she contributes productively to society, is independent/self-supporting, discharges responsibilities at work and at home, and maintains healthy (honest, open, trusting) relationships. Note that none of this includes accepting parents' beliefs without question, carrying on traditions of prejudice, or expecting others to be like him/herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Perhaps I should add a question: How do you really define the wellbeing of children?
    How indeed?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #27
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Hmm. But following from that logic, are you also saying Bill Maher is gay?
    No. I'm saying that he is so universally undesirable that only a confused closet lesbian like Coulter would "date" him.
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  8. #28
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No. I'm saying that he is so universally undesirable that only a confused closet lesbian like Coulter would "date" him.
    The joke was that Coulter is surely just as undesirable.
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  9. #29
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The joke was that Coulter is surely just as undesirable.
    I can't quite agree, though, you see?





    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The left leaning research institute, Child Trends says the following:
    "[R]esearch clearly demonstrates that family structure matters for children, and the family structure that helps children the most is a family headed by two biological parents in a low‐conflict marriage. Children in single‐parent families, children born to unmarried mothers, and children in step‐ families or cohabiting relationships face higher risks of poor outcomes. . . . There is thus value for children in promoting strong, stable marriages between biological parents. . . .“[I]t is not simply the presence of two parents, . . . but the pres‐ ence of two biological parents that seems to support children’s development."
    Um, this seems to point to the problem being the absence of one parent, either altogether or after a split.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You think a woman could have taught him to shave, to dribble, how to talk to women and it would have been the same?
    I feel embarrassed for you if this is the extent of your concerns. For your own good, save yourself the humiliation of ever uttering this in front of other people IRL.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #30
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I feel embarrassed for you if this is the extent of your concerns. For your own good, save yourself the humiliation of ever uttering this in front of other people IRL.
    As someone who grew up with a very detached father I find your comments very belittling of my own desire for a significant male influence in my life. Dribbling, shaving, and talking to women are just representative of a larger missing male influence.


    I've had you on ignore for some time. Please don't quote me anymore especially if you're just going to make rude and offensive comments like the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    All your arguments are just chemical reactions in your brain no more important than a rain drop in a puddle of mud as well; that is, they have no transcendental meaning or purpose. They just are. But they matter in the context of this discussion, because we as thinking beings weave meaning and importance, place value on things, hold different opinions and care about consequences. So, in other words, I can have meaningful argumentation on top of a 'meaningless worldview' (bad phrasing), but meaningful in a different, in an empirical way. Kant called himself a transcendental idealist but an empirical realist. It is somewhat like that.
    The point is that it's within a made-up context and as soon as you zoom out to the larger context of your reality it doesn't matter what we pretend matters. Broadly speaking we can weave meaning into things, place value on things, and determine consequences, but the content of any of those things doesn't matter or we can just not do any of those things.

    Let me add this example: In monopoly everyone pretends the money matters within the context of the game. Everyone looks down on steeling in monopoly. But, it's just a game and it doesn't really matter in the broader context of reality. To me, within your own view you're just playing a pretend game when you talk about the welfare of children.


    When I take part in discussions like this, though, I try to use words other people can understand, so that the conclusions we may or may not come to actually mean something. When I say 'good' in the context of this discussion, I do mean something similar to what most people mean, though perhaps my concept of good education involves a little less blind faith than yours. 'Good' and 'bad', however, are not your words; they do not have inherent religious connotations. Or have you never seen a good movie?
    Actually I do think there is moral value in art in that it is part of an effort to pursue the good, true and beautiful. A good movie isn't merely pleasing to me, but is a demonstration of real beauty, real goodness, and real truth.

    Perhaps I should add a question: How do you really define the wellbeing of children?
    This is actually a really good question and I have to think about it. Off the top of my head my inclination is that the well being of a child is directly related to the child being treated as a human child which brings in all the issues surrounding what it means to human. That is, a child is brought up with his or her soul, body, and mind nurtured so that the child is prepared to pursue the true, the good, and the beautiful within the context of his or her family and community according to the child's rights and duties.
    Last edited by Beorn; 03-04-2013 at 01:36 AM. Reason: Added example for nicodemus
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