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  1. #1
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Default I am a native American

    No, I do not 1/16 Navajo or something ridiculous like that. Or maybe I do, I don't know. That's besides the point... I was born in America, so I am a native American, am I not?

    You could say, well, your ancestors are from Europe, so you are not the same... yet even the tribes which existed in North America before colonialism moved from somewhere else. So really, I am just a native American from a different era, am I not?

    You could say, well, you do not follow any special culture or traditions, so you are not the same... yet the people who live on the reservation today do not either. In fact, some exploit government support for gambling and drug habits... in other words, tradition is not a pre-requisite, only blood.

    I am no less a native American than some guy who was born the same year as me on a reservation in the United States, and we should have equal treatment, should we not?



    What do you say about what rights modern people receive have based on events such as one country taking over another, slavery, etc. which happened centuries ago and at the time was acceptable practice? Should it spill over to later generations, who experience no perceivable difference (and often times a benefit) of the original event?

  2. #2
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    You're jealous of ethnic cleansing victims?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #3
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You're jealous of ethnic cleansing victims?
    First, you must know I don't really care about the right to a title like native American. I am simply illustrating that what we often accept as common can in fact be called into question and debate.

    Questions like, when was the last time ethnic cleansing occurred in the US?

    If an "ethnic cleansing victim" is someone born under the protection of modern human rights laws and then given additional privileged based on guilt for wrongdoing done to someone they are a distant descendant of, then yes, perhaps I should be jealous, and you should too.

    Maybe they should have told all those slaves while they were getting whipped that it's okay because one day black people, possibly related to you, possibly not, will use it to guilt-manipulate society into bending over for them even though they live totally normal, comfortable lives with the same rights and conveniences as everyone else. Would they think that was fair?

  4. #4
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    First, you must know I don't really care about the right to a title like native American. I am simply illustrating that what we often accept as common can in fact be called into question and debate.

    Questions like, when was the last time ethnic cleansing occurred in the US?

    If an "ethnic cleansing victim" is someone born under the protection of modern human rights laws and then given additional privileged based on guilt for wrongdoing done to someone they are a distant descendant of, then yes, perhaps I should be jealous, and you should too.
    If indigenous people born on reservations in the United States are experiencing privilege, I believe I will stick with my white guilt and all the terrible victimization that entails.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #5
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If indigenous people born on reservations in the United States are experiencing privilege, I believe I will stick with my white guilt and all the terrible victimization that entails.
    ...and what if the reservations were removed and the indigenous people integrated into society like everyone else? After all, this is a country of immigrants.

    In fact, why has the US been nursing this wound in the first place? Maybe there are other countries who allowed the natives to exist and did not demand they integrate with country who conquered them. Well, I can think of a few examples where they didn't force them to, but then again, that's because they just killed them all instead.

    The only reason I can think of is to preserve the native traditions... but far more often, the traditions are only respected by very old elders. The subsequent generations are more interested in putting up casinos.

    Which is my point... why, if the very people we've cordoned off as special in some way, live like everyone else, do we prevent them from moving on and becoming part of the herd? At worst, it's an opportunity for guilt-manipulation, at best, we're still restricting their right to the life they've chosen to live... a life just like everyone else regardless of the history behind their race.

    Which is why I ask... what do you think?

  6. #6
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    Statistics show just about any non-whites are given less than preferential treatment across a multitude of value fields.


    These programs help offset these inherent biases.


    I see no problem.


    I hear you on the being native American thing, though. My ancestors have been here many many generations, I would not doubt that our gene pool is it's own special little thing.

  7. #7
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You're jealous of ethnic cleansing victims?
    That's all I'm getting out of this too. There are lots of words in the posts, but I'm not sure what other point is being made.

  8. #8
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I was born in America, so I am a native American, am I not?
    Congratulations for 'exploring' the various definitions of the word 'native'. No one's ever thought to do that before.

    I am no less a native American than some guy who was born the same year as me on a reservation in the United States, and we should have equal treatment, should we not?
    According to which source you believe, indigenous peoples traversed into North America anywhere from 15000 - 40000 years ago, maybe even more. So, if we mark the arrival of European cultures with Columbus in 1492, the longest lineage you could claim, actually having a relation of yours standing foot on soil here in NA, is therefore maximally ~ 500 years.

    Put another way, if you want to believe being born here as a third, 4th or 5th generation 'native' gives you the same claim of ancestral heritage of an indigenous people spanning hundreds if not thousands of generations, you can go on deluding yourself I suppose.

    I realize you are just pot-stirring, but really, what's your beef with the recognition of native Americans as the first to explore and settle here and the rather scant at best privilege our society currently affords for recognizing the European expropriation of their lands?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #9
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    OK so the "indigenous" people can complain about the Conquest of the Americas when they give up all the science and technology brought by Europe, and go back to living as they did pre-1492.

    And I refer to the whole of the Americas not just the USA. I also refer to idiots like Evo Morales in Bolivia (The President). He claims to be a victim of the Europeans, but yet his people were previously under the rule of the Incas, in much worse conditions. So if anything the natives were liberated by the Conquest.

    Anyway, European people are indigenous as well, but imagine if someone called themselves "indigenous" to Europe, they would be called a Nazi.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    OK so the "indigenous" people can complain about the Conquest of the Americas when they give up all the science and technology brought by Europe, and go back to living as they did pre-1492.

    And I refer to the whole of the Americas not just the USA. I also refer to idiots like Evo Morales in Bolivia (The President). He claims to be a victim of the Europeans, but yet his people were previously under the rule of the Incas, in much worse conditions. So if anything the natives were liberated by the Conquest.

    Anyway, European people are indigenous as well, but imagine if someone called themselves "indigenous" to Europe, they would be called a Nazi.
    How far back in blood lines should we go? You could say all humans are indigenous to Africa (where our species evolved) and we've invaded the rest of the planet. All this talk of indigenous and non-indigenous is nonsense.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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